Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Is there really a difference any more?

Apocalypse was published, IIRC, early to mid way 6th ed. Since then, there was Stronghold Assault and Escalation which started to blur the lines between Eternal War games and Apocalypse games. This trend has continued into 7th ed. SInce the start of 7th ed, each codex and codex supplement has included formations for the faction at hand. WAAAGH! Ghazghkull publishing an updated Green Tide, and the SW codex reprised the Great Company. The GK codex introduced the Grey Knights Brotherhood, while Champions of Fenris introduced The Champions of Fenris formation. These weighed in at just over 2000 points and just under 3000 points respectively (before upgrades). Are these latter pre-formulated armies or the start of a small apocalypse army? Slightly complicating things is that in Apocalypse and all of GW's Apocalypse War Zone books list everything as a "formation". Both the IG baneblade and Tyranid Endless Swarm are classified as formations.

Are formations formations across Apocalypse, Eternal War, and Maelstorm, or are there Apocalypse formations and non-Apocalypse formations?

There is a difference between Apoc Formations and regular formations. The rules and formations for Apoc are in apocolypse rulebooks and thus only have permission for use in apocolypse. Instances like banblades are only allowed in normal 40k because there are rules established for their use in normal games in non-apoc books (like escalation).

No, you have Formations and Apocalypse Formations.
That's a good thing, since some Apocalypse Formations would be really overpowered in normal games.

Especially the Necrons have some strong Apocalypse Formations that would be too good for regular games.
Court of the Flayer King has Rage, Hatred and FNP3+
They have formations for a nearly immortal death-start, jump troops with RP of 3+ (2+ with an Orb) and S8 weapons.
Even Formations where you take three fliers.

Of course there's a difference.

Apocalypse Formations are for games of Apocalypse, not 40k

Some Apocalypse Formations are tame enough for 40k. The Deathwatch Formation for instance. A Captain and 2 Sternguard squads with anti-Necron buffs. But five Fire Prisms with shrouded isn't in the same league.

Really?
They have AP4-bolters that counter Reanimation Protocol.
Preferred Enemy against one Codex of Xenos.
And additional Victory Points for killing their Warlord.

Despite what GW might believe, there is nothing balanced or fun about things that so heavily counter a specific army.

Yes, really.

It hits Necrons hard, yes, but would you also say the Blood Angel campaign Relics are unbalanced and unfun because they can 1) Ignore Shadow of the Warp 2) Insta-kill a Monstrous Creature 3) Preferred Enemy (Tyranids) unit 4) Ignore Penetrating hits from Venom Cannons and anything called Plasma by Tyranid creatures. All of which Blood Angels now have access to in normal 40k. Even as a Tyranid player first and foremost it doesn't bother me.

I stand by saying the anti-Necron Deathwatch formation is tame. If a player asked before the game, I'd certainly allow it. But there is still a difference between that and a normal 40k Formation, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that some can make the jump to normal 40k and I wouldn't be afraid to ask my opponent if he were okay with some of the more reasonable ones in normal games.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Some Apocalypse Formations are tame enough for 40k.

Tame or not doesn't matter.
Apocalypse Formations are still not legal for games of 40k.

You could, of course, always talk to your buddies about it. I can think of a few of mine that wouldn't mind (depending on the formation of course).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You could, of course, always talk to your buddies about it. I can think of a few of mine that wouldn't mind (depending on the formation of course).

That's kind of what prompted this post. Awhile ago I thought my group had agreed that anything in any GW publication (including FW) intended for 6th ed that was still valid in 7th ed was fair game, so Escalation, Stronghold Assault, codecies, etc., but obviously not the BRB. They took it to mean ALL GW publications including anything published in Apocalypse. I didn't realize this discrepancy until we were doing a 2vs1 and the 1 started pulling broadside attack patterns even though he was fielding a CAD. The other two player had been playing the latter way for quite some time apparently; I just discovered that and am trying to do fire control.

 grendel083 wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Some Apocalypse Formations are tame enough for 40k.

Tame or not doesn't matter.
Apocalypse Formations are still not legal for games of 40k.

Anything is legal if both (or all) players agree...........

 Mr Morden wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Some Apocalypse Formations are tame enough for 40k.

Tame or not doesn't matter.
Apocalypse Formations are still not legal for games of 40k.

Anything is legal if both (or all) players agree...........

You're talking house rules now.

Sure I could take Dwarf Iron Breakers in 40k if my opponent allowed.

Apocalypse Formations are for Apocalypse (their rules state this), you need to invent a rule to use them in standard 40k games. This isn't the same as agreeing to use Forge World models or not (which is perfectly legal by the rules) you have to actually break a rule to use Apoc Formations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OomieCrusha wrote:
They took it to mean ALL GW publications including anything published in Apocalypse.

"Apocalypse Formations are intended for use in games of Warhammer 40,00: Apocalypse, within the game restrictions decided upon by the game's Organiser beforehand."

Games of Apoc are very different from games of standard 40k. These formations simply aren't meant to be used for 40k, this goes beyond simply allowing 6th ed stuff into your games. Same with Battle Formations and Armour Spearhead Formations.

The 7th ed rule book still refers to Apoc as being a seperate system.