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Made in au
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

So I haven't been keeping up properly with the End Times stuff but a few things have jumped out at me as the story has progressed. Namely the map getting distinctly smaller.

This is apparently the Warhammer world map, I say apparently because the only time I've seen it this size in a GW publication since I joined the Hobby is in the BRB.
Spoiler:


Then you have the map I am much more familiar with as it seems to be the default map for Warhammer these days:
Spoiler:


It feels to me like the End Times are reducing the whole world to that second map. Nippon, Carthay, Arby and even Kislev seem to just have been written out of the fluff in the opening book, then we have something about the Lizardmen leaving their jungles and now with the elf book Ulthuan is apparently gone as is the capital of Naggaroth with all elves having moved to the old world with the Wood Elves.

What on earth is happening here? I can understand the mentality of getting rid of the kingdoms that haven't been mentioned in 10 years, or who might have never really been developed beyond 1 dimensional historical analogies, or who don't have models still in production. I can understand that, not really agree with it but I can see the logic used to justify it.

Ulthuan and Naggaroth though, and Lustria too soon most likely. What possible reason could there be for them to be removed from the world?

Am I missing something here.. am I just hating change for the sake of change? It just seems very clearly to me that GW are reducing the world to something about one tenth the size for no reason.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





You may be jumping the gun just a tiny bit ; there was a recently a rumor stating that Kislev is going to be back (at least in the fluff) in book 5 of end times.

Also, Map 1 is the "known" WHFB world. Map 2 is just "The Olde World" (think like Imperial Europe, whereas Naggaroth, Ulthuan, Lustria, Etc is the new world).


True Ulthuan with End Times is no more, but Naggaroth is still there, its just overrun by daemons. Lustria is there, the lizards haven't had much air time in End Times past the quip that made everyone freak out by saying they were planning an exodus of some sort, which is pretty open to interpretation if you ask me. With regards to Ulthuan, it may be gone but it was an artificial land construct to begin with. The surviving elves are all now in Athel Loren.


Finally... recently there have been a lot of rumors flying around that Book 5 might not be the last end times, and that end times might continue past the dropping of 9th ed. Its also not the first time these rumors have come up. Lots can happen.


The rest of this post i'[m going to put under spoiler tag, as its half conjecture, half pontification... and isn't really 100% on topic, but more talks about why i think we're seeing all this "change" come out of GW with fantasy in the first place. TL;DR version - there are signs GW might be partially getting their gak together with Fantasy. They kinda have to or the game is going to become unsustainable.

Spoiler:

I think what we're seeing is dual fold ; a massive shake up of the warhammer world lots of things are consolidated. There's differing opinion on this, but i think they are going to go from X of Chaos, Y of Chaos, Z of Chaos to "Legions of Chaos". Ditton on elves. Ditto on Dead Things. Ditto on Humans. It gets a little trickier with the non-humans. I doubt anything will get squatted, but there are people that disagree with me.

Why the shake up ? I spelled out the economics of it in another thread, but basically, books are extremely costly to produce, hugely man-power intensive, so the less times you have to go to print = better. If you have a rule book, and fifteen army books, that's 16 print "processes" (which include design, writing, editing, layout, proofing, printing, likely multiple passes at each other than printing. Very manpower heavy, therefore costly. Also printing books individually is REALLY very costly).

If you can print the same amount of information in say 1 main rule book, and 5-6 army compendiums, you save a lot of money on costs of producing products that don't generate a ton of margin to begin with. YOu also make it capable of turning revisions of the game more quickly, but most importantly you free up resources to design rules for more models. Rules for which you will eventually release a model. You could theoretically take the Privateer / Infinity model of releases ; release a large book of "elves", with an additional 6 sets of rules for models that don't have models. You then take the next 12-24 months to release those 10 new things (remember, interleaved in taht 12-24 months is also all the other fantasy releases too, and of course, clearly their other products).

What does this do ? Well, it gets people to buy the book for one thing, but it also builds anticipation and buzz for people to come back to your website, etc., to try to find out when the SuperMegaAwesome ElfGuy is being released. Privateer has perfected this model. They drop a book for each game on a rotating annual schedule. Depending on the book it has a handful to about 10 items per army, with a couple mercs thrown in there usually too. That's what's going to come out for whichever game in the next 24 month cycle. So even though each army might only be getting 6 new things, it might be spread over 24 months. Builds anticipation, but also delivers a payload of goodies with the book immediately.

GW's currently model is a blunderbuss effect - New Army Book drops, along with a week or two (or very rarely a 2 phase drop) with all the new toys. And then you hit the blunderbuss reload phase: you get nothing until your book gets updated again. With 15 books, this means that you have a choice ; your lower selling armies you put time and resources into updating (brets, woodies), but it might not be economically viable to update as say, Dark or HIgh elves again.

Consolidation of armies does away with a LOT of this. There's another angle too. Inclusive customer purchasing rather than exclusive.


Wargames have almost always been exclusive in terms of interior customer marketing. I.e. you pick an army or faction in a game and that is your army. It's a relatively recent phenomenon where games are getting inclusive in their interior marketing. What do i mean by this ? It might make more sense if we examine the problem rather than the root cause.

Say you have 1000 total elf players worldwide. 550 play dark elves. 350 play high elves. 100 play woodies. (i am specifically using nice round numbers, and wide spectrum gulfs just to illustrate a point).

You (the company) can tell this roughly by purchasing records of books and models. You want to update Wood Elves, but it has less than 20% of the economic turn potential of Dark Elves. It costs pretty much the same to publish Army Book: Dark Elves, as it does Wood Elves, and costs roughly the same to get models designed and produced. But the pool of potential buyers is drastically smaller.

Exclusive model says: I'm a customer and i have chosen woodies. Company expends the capital to release wood elves book and goodies. Great ! 10% of elf players out there can take advantage, and then you get stragglers who want to paint . own, convert, etc the model.

Inclusive model says: INstead of "only" being able to play a single army, combine up like themes, or allow trans-pollination (trans-pollination example would be "allies" or "mercenaries" in games). If you combine Dark, High, and Wood elves, and then you release a new wood elf looking themed toy, your potential market is now 1000 elf players. You probably won't hit all 1000, but before, your potential market was 100 of 1000 + anomalies. Now your potential market is 1000 of 1000 players + anomalies.

And how'd you do that ? Very simply. Via some writing and (hopefully, though this is GW...) playtesting, and ultimately a rule book publish (which is a net zero effect, you're doing that anyway one way or another).

So now you have your Host of the Eternity King player who can pick and choose almost freely amongst three product line offerings where he could pick one before. Win ! Great ! Previously Mr. Wood Elf Player was only sampling one product line. Now he can activate and buy and sample 3.

Now add in allies (trans-pollination, or the mixing of unlike things). Give that player the ability to use Ogres in a minor way. Or Lizards. Allow that Legions of Chaos player to take some undead. Now you have a player who can pick and choose amongst LOTS of lines and activate all over your range.


Part of the problem with fantasy right now (well.... pre-End Times) is that you pick your army and build it. If you're a huge fan of the game you might build a second or third, but honestly, most people are going to stop at 1. Whereas with other games like infinity or WM, the average sized game makes it relatively easy to play more than one faction. With Fantasy the buy in to start a second army is just too large and daunting for most players. So you have most of your customers for the game locked into one product line and one product line only. And if they have what they need, and aren't buying more, that customer is dead to you for that product line until you release something new for that army.

This does away with that problem, at least potentially. You now have a customer who can spend his money on several base product lines, and possibly even more. Which means that this customer (previously inert for many years at a time), combined with the rolling release schedule, now activates for you several times (hopefully) over a 2 year rolling release. Again, using the "over the next 24 months you'll get 6 new things". Past the initial barrage of purchases our former Just Woody Elf only player can make by opening up High and Dark to him, you also have now potentially allowed him to activate (i.e. buy stuff) for you several times in the next 2 years. You are building what you hope will be a rolling revenue stream with this model.


It's pretty clear that they are taking steps to go from a game that has an interior customer exclusive marketing model, to an interior customer inclusive marketing model. 7th Editions Unbound in 40k can serve as no greater example (perhaps hamfisted, though i have enjoyed it) to this. I think you're going to "compendiums" of armies rather than individual armies which will allow you to (using elves as a model) play Mono-Dark, MOno-High, Mono-Wood .... and then have rules which let you play combined (say like Host of the Eternity King, and etc). I think they will do this so that, with customers they already "have" they will expose those captured customers to potentially new buying habits (i.e. i was a high elf player.... after Khaine, i'm now buying up wood and Dark elves... i'm sure some chaos and undead players are doing the same).


Finally, they are shaking things up, and that's because the game isn't doing well. It's this monolithic juggernaut of books, models, and while very very fun game, its definitely not as fluid as some other games out there. It's also continuing to be a lesser part of their profit portfolio. To use a cliche, Fantasy is a boat that is taking on water, and the crew have been asleep for some time. The first mate might have just woke up though, and there are signs that he definitely SEES the bucket, and might even think that he could pick it up and start putting that wet stuff back into the ocean. His hand might even be outstretched to pick up the bucket.

The game isn't bringing in the money it once did, is a bear to update, and is not attracting new players due to the buy-in and barrier to entry. These are all per GW corporate statements and releases (albeit condensed).

How do you break barrier to entry ? Reduce buy in. What's 1 really easy way you do that ? Make it *possible* to reduce model cost. They did this. They moved lords and heroes up to 50% of points you can use. This literally is a move to reduce initial buy-in barrier to entry.

How do get existing customers to spend more. Well... release more models, sure. But how do you "do more with less" in this instance ? You allow existing customers to buy existing models and use them. Voila. End Times, Compendium style army books. Unbound. Mercs / Allies, etc.

How do you reduce cost of updating the massive encyclopedia of books that represents fantasy and 'turn' ? Print fewer books, make them larger so you go to print less times.


I really think they are trying some radical things with Fantasy (or gearing up to do so), and i hope that they don't get cold feet and puss out on it. The game is about a quarter of their earnings right now. It's difficult to see how a new army (say, chaos dwarves, just as a for instance) could ever come into the game right now as bloated and unwieldly as it is... so i think they have to trim the fat, suck in the gut, fit into that corset, with the game before they can start expanding. Condensing individual flavors of armies into overaching themes of armies could make this work.

If you're still reading this, thanks, it got long winded. Even for me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/01 12:45:22


 daedalus wrote:

I mean, it's Dakka. I thought snide arguments from emotion were what we did here.


 
   
Made in gb
Walking Dead Wraithlord






Bring on nippon army as a faction... Samurai/ninja troops + jade beasts /japanese + chinese mythology monsters vs orcs and knights?

I cannot see this fail.

Cmon GW ive been hoping for this for the last 10 years.. Maybe next year. Maybe...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

Haight, thanks for that wall of text. Some of it makes perfect sense like consolidating for ease of updating but I'd contest the idea GW want to release rules for x new units then release them over y time period.

Fantasy is insanely bloated right now and can't possibly be justifying the 15 odd army books they are trying to maintain. Given GWs prehistoric codex release system the very best case scenario leaves any individual army without an update for 2 years. Worst case is far, far longer than that. Turning 3 elf books into one cuts fat but GW recently have been cutting down to the bone. Hell, they have virtually no middle managment left. I don't really want to believe it but I've been told by my local redshirt here in Australia that there is only one person between him and the bigwigs in Nottingham. I feel like kicking the dark and high elves out of their homes is this same mentality. Its probably quicker and easier to make them all the Eternity host in the forrest of the Old World but I have no inclination to dust off my DEs (well actually I do, for Kings of War) because I loved them for their fluff of hating the high elves above anything else in the world. I loved the idea of Malekith being the rightful king denied so instead he became their worst enemy. I loved the different provinces of Ulthuan and the different cultures in each. It feels like in trying to get everyone in an 'elf' book they've stripped almost everything that made them unique outside of the physical models.

My big issue here is essentially why does an 'elf' book have to twist the fluff to put them in one place instead of just staple the 3 books together and add in the stuff about them working together?


As for release schedule, I highly doubt GW will ever again release rules without a model. They did this for a long time. Then people began selling their own versions of these models GW wheren't and they became paranoid. You can see it in the later 6th and now 7th 40k codecies, they rather remove popular characters who have been around several editions rather than allow a profile without a model into the book.

I think GW are caught between a rock and a hard place here, they can't maintain the codex release system schedule where only 1 army gets any attention at a time, but they are not willing to drop the codex system and adopt something like PPs, Corvus Bellis, or the others out there making great strides in the market because it would mean no longer charging every customer an extra $50 (if you're lucky) for a second set of rules.


Ultimately though none of this seems to explain what still looks to me like the shrinking of the warhammer world down to the small section of the old world.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Ragik






 jonolikespie wrote:



As for release schedule, I highly doubt GW will ever again release rules without a model. They did this for a long time. Then people began selling their own versions of these models GW wheren't and they became paranoid. You can see it in the later 6th and now 7th 40k codecies, they rather remove popular characters who have been around several editions rather than allow a profile without a model into the book.


Kindof right but not exactly. Remember the Dwarf book had characters without a model. As did wood elves and dark elves. The issue is Fantasy isn't really a defensible IP. 40k is easily defensible but if I say "Dwarf weaponsmth" instead of "Dwarf engineer" or "Great anvil" instead of whatever the dwarf anvil is called it's easy to get away with. because of how prevalent D&D and high fantasy is anyone can make a stand in model & GW will have a hard time contesting it. Whereas 40k is pretty unique in its styling of each army.

Trade rules: lower rep trades ships 1st. - I ship within 2 business days, if it will be longer I will contact you & explain. - I will NOT lie on customs forms, it's a felony, do not ask me to mark sales as "gifts". Free shipping applies to contiguous US states. 
   
Made in us
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

GW would and did have a hard time contesting skulls and Roman numerals on models are a uniquely GW and trademakable design choice, didn't stop them.

You're right that fantasy hasn't been hit nearly as hard but its still a mentality infecting GW HQ. I'll pay that characters may get through, but I don't expect units to. Its entirely against the business model they're working towards.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Ragik






Definitely no units. But Characters probably.

Trade rules: lower rep trades ships 1st. - I ship within 2 business days, if it will be longer I will contact you & explain. - I will NOT lie on customs forms, it's a felony, do not ask me to mark sales as "gifts". Free shipping applies to contiguous US states. 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





 jonolikespie wrote:
Haight, thanks for that wall of text. Some of it makes perfect sense like consolidating for ease of updating but I'd contest the idea GW want to release rules for x new units then release them over y time period.


Welcome! I enjoy putting down my rambling pontifications. Also, fwiw, i agree with you, though i think they'd be insane not to move onto that release schedule. Just me.




... GW recently have been cutting down to the bone. Hell, they have virtually no middle managment left. I don't really want to believe it but I've been told by my local redshirt here in Australia that there is only one person between him and the bigwigs in Nottingham.



Fair being fair, this is how it is in most businesses. Usually its Territory manager (in this case store manager), regional manager (which manages several TM's), and then upper level management. The fact that there were more layers at GW for the sales strata actually says that their previous model was flawed (btw, i work for a multi billion-dollar a year turn over international corp, and though not a sales man, i'm in the sales stream departments, and I report to American Sales Director. I give this just for illustration that i'm not completely talking out of my ass! ).


My big issue here is essentially why does an 'elf' book have to twist the fluff to put them in one place instead of just staple the 3 books together and add in the stuff about them working together?


I think the big thing here is that if they gave either HE or DE any "way out" (like just staying put in Ulthuan or Naggarond) then it wouldn't seem like any or all of them going to Athel Loren would make any sense. I think they really needed a scorched earth mentality to make any of it work. Just my opinion on it. But i think that's why they did it. However, i'm surprised that they chose Athel Loren of the three to be the new Echo Base, as it were. I would have thought Ulthuan would make more sense personally, though potentially more insulting to WE players. Maybe because Woodies have always been the neutral middle ground, quietly rolling their eyes at both their cousins ? Again, just a guess.


As for release schedule, I highly doubt GW will ever again release rules without a model. They did this for a long time.



Never say never. There's a lot of benefits to doing this. They need to shake up how they do things, and have shown signs of doing some of that recently... However you make a good point in ...

Then people began selling their own versions of these models GW wheren't and they became paranoid.


I think perhaps their recent legal struggles with 3rd partiers is the real barrier here, so i mostly agree. I think it's something they need to do but won't.


I think GW are caught between a rock and a hard place here, they can't maintain the codex release system schedule where only 1 army gets any attention at a time, but they are not willing to drop the codex system and adopt something like PPs, Corvus Bellis, or the others out there making great strides in the market because it would mean no longer charging every customer an extra $50 (if you're lucky) for a second set of rules.


Well I think they are taking one step towards the PP/Corvus model, by doing compendiums of like armies. I don't think anything is going to keep you from Playing Mono-Elf, or Mono Tomb Kings, etc. But i also don't think they are going to go to a system of existing books have the rules for everything, and new books release new stuff for all. This would, for new editions, almost require a model-card mechanic to make work. I also don't think this would be a bad idea, but i mean, i think we need to expect baby steps rather than sprinting.




Ultimately though none of this seems to explain what still looks to me like the shrinking of the warhammer world down to the small section of the old world.


Good point. we veered way off topic. Mostly my fault.

 daedalus wrote:

I mean, it's Dakka. I thought snide arguments from emotion were what we did here.


 
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM





 jonolikespie wrote:

Ultimately though none of this seems to explain what still looks to me like the shrinking of the warhammer world down to the small section of the old world.


Conjecture, but maybe GW are using WHFB as a guinea pig to see the reception the fanbase give when the fluff is advanced.

WHFB was apparently in decline and has been for some time. For GW they don't have much to lose by shaking up the fluff.

As for specifically why the map is shrinking. It could just be a plot device to set the stage for the climatic battle for the End Times. it could be that they think giving each faction more to fight for in fluff terms will give players more incentive to play games and breath new life into the game.

Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-) 
   
 
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