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After hearing "boys before toys" so much I feel like I'm sending bare bones units out too much and it became increasingly apparent to me the other night as my basic Grey Hunters were pretty much wiped off the table against Blood Angels that had power fists and more plasma/meltas than me. I may be stuck in an Imperial Guard mindset in thinking that anything but basic weapons is a waste of points. The most I do is give everybody chain swords and a melta. How does everybody else load up their basic troops/tacticals/grey hunters/etc? That definitely taught me to not put so much faith in mass fire bolters. Too stuck in that ol' IG mindset of laser pointer to death I suppose.

It depends on the context really.

But saying that with all my armies my basic troops are bare.

My Tau have great guns anyway that can take down T8 or AV11. My Dark Eldar could take on MCs with poison and there was no point giving them a blaster cause its only better against tanks and then everyone else in the unit would waste their shots. My Blood Angels are stuffed in a Las/Plas Razorback so don't do much and don't really need AT.

With Space Marines in particular Tac squads are so general purpose that their not great at much and therefore hard to justify putting lots of points into them.

Just my thoughts. I hope they help.

Isn't it "Ork-boyz before toys"?

I think it's important to find a balance.
An example would be the Death Company-group from that Blood Angel-box.
Bare they cost around 100 points; With their upgrades they are around 200 points.
Way too expensive!

A Tactical Squad can go from 140 to 240 if you take 'reasonable' upgrades (No double TH on the Sergeant).
That would make your ppm go from 14 to 24, again way too expensive!

I always have a small list I tend to ask myself, I've put some examples under them.
-Do I have the spare points for this upgrade?
-Do I need this upgrade?
Why should I take a Power weapon on Sniper Scouts, they don't get into close combat?
And do you really need 3 Power Fists in that 6-model unit?
-Does this upgrade have any synergy with the rest of the squad?
Did I just put a Heavy weapon in the same group with upgrades for close combat?
-Can't I spread these upgrades to other squads?
Often it's better to spread upgrades, a backfield camping unit with two long-range weapons is fine. But if you have two of those units, why not give both an upgrade?
-Is this upgrade more worth than more bodies?
Additional attacks, shots or better AP/Strength are good.
But always check whether another body on the field wouldn't be better in resilience and attack power.

Bare-bone units can be very tempting, especially for me since I play Blood Angels and I love the Death Company.
Often it's quite valuable to take one less model so you can take one or two Power Weapons.
I might lose 5 attacks, but 10 attacks at AP3 can be better than 15 attacks at AP-
But I also don't want to spend everything on Power Weapons, since that would be a waste when the enemy has no decent armour save.
When I make such a group, I always do some rough math in my head to see how they would do against: 20 Ork Boyz, 10 Marines or 15 <insert something with Sv4+>

If you want some ideas for a specific unit you can always see what others do in:
Army-lists: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/14.page
Tactics: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/18.page

I load out termagants one of 2 ways, the first is the basic bare ones option, the 2nd is doubling there cost and shoving 20 in a drop pod to land and throw out 60 str 4 shots.

In both cases both options can be great if used well, as if they kill the cheap guys they have wasted effort killing models that I couldn't care less about. heck if I lose 3 termagants for every space marine I kill I am still coming out ahead.

I think SM are too expensive per model (and in squads that are too small) to not give them an extra weapon or two. I'm not saying go all out and give the squad every upgrade it can take, but you need to give them at least a special weapon.

For grey hunters, I generally go with the spec weapon before bothering with the chainsword upgrade. 10 extra CC attacks is nice, but being able to actually pop a tank is nicer.

Well, what I normally do with my Immortals and Warriors is take...

Oh, right.

Kangodo wrote:
Isn't it "Ork-boyz before toys"?

I think it's important to find a balance.
An example would be the Death Company-group from that Blood Angel-box.
Bare they cost around 100 points; With their upgrades they are around 200 points.
Way too expensive!

A Tactical Squad can go from 140 to 240 if you take 'reasonable' upgrades (No double TH on the Sergeant).
That would make your ppm go from 14 to 24, again way too expensive!

I always have a small list I tend to ask myself, I've put some examples under them.
-Do I have the spare points for this upgrade?
-Do I need this upgrade?
Why should I take a Power weapon on Sniper Scouts, they don't get into close combat?
And do you really need 3 Power Fists in that 6-model unit?
-Does this upgrade have any synergy with the rest of the squad?
Did I just put a Heavy weapon in the same group with upgrades for close combat?
-Can't I spread these upgrades to other squads?
Often it's better to spread upgrades, a backfield camping unit with two long-range weapons is fine. But if you have two of those units, why not give both an upgrade?
-Is this upgrade more worth than more bodies?
Additional attacks, shots or better AP/Strength are good.
But always check whether another body on the field wouldn't be better in resilience and attack power.

Bare-bone units can be very tempting, especially for me since I play Blood Angels and I love the Death Company.
Often it's quite valuable to take one less model so you can take one or two Power Weapons.
I might lose 5 attacks, but 10 attacks at AP3 can be better than 15 attacks at AP-
But I also don't want to spend everything on Power Weapons, since that would be a waste when the enemy has no decent armour save.
When I make such a group, I always do some rough math in my head to see how they would do against: 20 Ork Boyz, 10 Marines or 15 <insert something with Sv4+>

If you want some ideas for a specific unit you can always see what others do in:
Army-lists: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/14.page
Tactics: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/18.page

I figured boys before toys was a pretty universal rule. But I guess when your units are a little cheaper to field it's a little more sensible. That's a really good write up and isn't something I've really considered in terms of list making. My last game, if I had put a few power fists/swords it might have won me the game. Especially against his Mephiston who reaped a deadly toll against my poor guys. But in all reality, he shouldn't have been able to make 20 +2 saves... that's just bananas. But thanks for the write up, points per model wasn't anything I really thought of. It was more of a "put 9 guys in here with a character, in a drop pod, with a melta, you're good to go."

 Gamerely wrote:
After hearing "boys before toys" so much I feel like I'm sending bare bones units out too much and it became increasingly apparent to me the other night as my basic Grey Hunters were pretty much wiped off the table against Blood Angels that had power fists and more plasma/meltas than me.

I think you're getting a little confused. Boys before toys doesn't mean don't upgrade your basic infantry, it means don't cut out your basic infantry too much so that you can fit more clobbersaurus bling ghetto blaster units in your army. It would mean, for example, not taking bare-bones troops choices just so that you can squeeze another elites or HS choice in there. Better to take one fewer support unit if it means your core units are properly upgraded.

Because if they're not, then you get what you just described. A squad of guardsmen is nearly worthless, but a squad of guardsmen with a lascannon and meltagun isn't. the boys before toys principle helps ensure that guard squad gets those guns.

IMO it depends on the upgrade and how likely it is to earn its points back. Examples:

Special weapons are almost an auto-include. Virtually every army has at least some targets where a melta/plasma gun is useful, and if basic troops are in range to use their guns at all they can use their special weapons. So I can be very confident that the melta/plasma guns are going to be worth the points I pay for them, and will often be worth more than the points they cost. And with that kind of guarantee available the only reason not to buy the maximum number of special weapon upgrades is in the very rare situations where sacrificing a gun allows me to buy a vital unit/upgrade elsewhere in my army.

Heavy weapons are a 50/50 thing. Targets will always be available, but the inability to shoot while moving is a huge drawback and it's much less obvious that I'm going to get a good return on my investment. A unit that is intended to camp in the back for most of the game always gets the maximum number of heavy weapon upgrades, but a unit that I'm expecting to use in a mobile role is unlikely to get any, especially if the unit already has special weapons available.

Melee weapons are rarely worth it. To use one successfully you have to get into charge range of a target without getting shot off the table, and hope the dice don't betray you when you roll for charge distance. And the unit you're charging has to be within a narrow range of power: strong enough that your melee upgrades are necessary, but weak enough that you aren't just throwing away your unit. If the target unit is too weak you wasted points on overkill, if they're too strong you wasted points on upgrades you won't use because you aren't going to be in combat at all. And it gets even worse because, unlike shooting upgrades, melee upgrades are much less effective on troops than on HQs/elites but cost the same points. So troops are never going to be a high priority for melee upgrades even when you decide to put those upgrades somewhere in your army.

i play DKOK ,and that is exactly the mindset your in, get away from that! hahaha.... leave that to the IG ... weapons are worth more than lives.... words my men live by "when your staring down the barrel of a necron guass gun, save your weapon by casting it away from you they are more valuable than you! " not exact quote but dead men walking...

I would run a standard space marine squad with a heavy weapon, special weapon, and the sergeant would be decked out maybe a pwr fist... depend son the sqd and thier purpose.
FMJ

changemod wrote:Well, what I normally do with my Immortals and Warriors is take...

Oh, right.

I equip my Immortals with a Lord with Res Orb and Sempiternal Weave and a DespiTek with Veil. :p See? 'crons do have unit upgrades if you run Overlords.

My Sisters, I give them double specials, but almost never upgrade the Superior unless I'm going for an insane-o double blob priest assault list.

Hrm. All good advice. What's considered the tipping point in that case? Like at what point is a unit carrying too many points? Grey Hunters can get pricey fast if you give everybody chainswords, a melta or two, a power weapon, and MAYBE a plasma pistol? I guess it's like how somebody else said, yeah having a few more grey hunters would be cool, but would you like having 3 more guys who might make them make an armor save or have one guy who will just make them die if they wound.

Boyz before Toyz is more of an Ork thing. The reasoning is the more boyz you put on the table the better odds of getting the Nob and his Power Klaw up to the big ugly and ripping its head off and doing horribly disgusting things down it's neck. If oyu use that idea then boyz are little more than extra wounds for the Nob and thus dumping too much into them is pointless.

Example: Ork boy costs 6 points. 'Eavy Armor is 4 points. For every 3 boyz in 'Eavy Armor you are loosing one potential boy. Now the question becomes is a 4+ save for three worth 4 boyz? Against things without much AP like Nids, yes. Against Space Marines probably not. So I fine tune. I'm fighting Nids today so my boyz have 'Eavy Armor. If I fight Space Marines tomorrow they wont have it. The nice thing about our group is we aren't too hard on the WYSIWYG rule. We allow reasonable proxies.

So when you are outfitting any infantry the same rule applies. Do you want more bodies to soak up hits that armor is generally useless against or do you want heavy armor bodies to protect them against less powerful shooty armies?

Any other gizmos should follow the same rule. Sure it would be nice to give troops all the gadgets but if you expect them to soak wounds to keep ore powerful models alive then go light on gadgets. All the big fancy guns in the world are useless if the unit dies in round one from a heavy artillery barrage.

Of course you also need to take point levels into account. My Nid battle today is going to be 1850 pts. I am feilding every ork boy model I have and after some reasonable vehicle choices I had the points to spare on 'Eavy armor for everyone who can legally have it. So that made the choice easier for me. Even if I strip them down to t-shirt saves I can't get more boyz on the field so why not get the cardboard armor out?

I outfit my CSM with 2x specials, either meltas or plasmas and a rhino. Pretty comparable to your GH although you could consider a drop-pod in place of the transport. Efficient upgrades for their cost. Save the melee upgrades for the things you want to send into melee.

If tactical marines could take double specials that would make them great. I always take a special on them. Though with the new blood angels I have taken to include heavy weapons also

A normal Chaos Marine squad for me has a Powerfisted (That sounds so wrong) Champion, a plasma gun and a melta.

My tacs get a special, a heavy weapon, a combi weapon, and a ride. No reason to not give them at least a rhino - every big gun that shoots a rhino is one not shooting the marines. And it is objective secured.

Of course, it I creases the cost of the troop tax, but as long as you can still fit the units that are going to do the real work, there is no problem. The special weapons mean that the tax might actually do something for you other than (as marines) shoot the second worst standard weapon in the game. (The worst being orderless lasguns)

 Matthew wrote:
A normal Chaos Marine squad for me has a Powerfisted (That sounds so wrong) Champion, a plasma gun and a melta.

Problem with that setup is you're spending 50 points to do 3 different things unreliably. The single melta can miss the tank, the single plasma gets hot and dies, the powerfist gets destroyed in the first mandatory challenge he enters in to.

While Boys before Toys might have started as an ork thing (The best upgrade you can give an ork is another boy standing next to him) it works for all armies. But you do need some toys. Just enough upgrades to get your job done, and if you can a good return for your points, sometimes it’s worth broadening out a little.

Consider the melta bomb. Only 5 points, almost everyone can take one. On a good day, random_sarge_03 gets to stand over the smoking ruin of a Land Raider. 5 points to kill 250+ sounds good lets hand them out! But consider how many you are putting in you list. Could those points be spent getting a dedicated AV unit? So you could pop tanks and let the rest of your army do their primary job? Most tanks are AV 10 on the back, the the stock krack grenades every marine comes with for free can work; not every game is going to need their power. They are nice toys, and can give a squad who lacks it some AV power, but not everyone needs them.

And then there are bad toys. Plasma pistols at 15ppm. You are going to shoot that once, maybe twice? Assuming you don’t blow your own hand off, you gong to get your points back? At that point you have to seriously consider the opportunity cost of not spending the points elsewhere.

Kangodo and Peregrine wrote very good posts on the topic here. Exalted.

depends, with my tau, than I go skin and bone with my fire warriors, with space marines, I tend to be more flexible with bonuses and what not

I find it depends on the unit and their utility.
With my Tau I never give any upgrades to firewarriors and I'm reluctant to buy drones because I don't think they're worth it. With kroot I no longer get any upgrades except 1 hound.
With marines it is completely different I will usually take bikes with 2 specials or a 5 man squad with one in a pod.
With Blood Angels I take 4 flamers (of a variety) because multiple templates is better for wound generation.

On basic troop units I take every opportunity to take special or heavy weapons so long as it fits their purpose. If a squad of Guardsmen is going to be mobile I'll skip the heavy weapon, but I'll at least give them a special weapon. Tac Marine squads always have a heavy/special, CSM always have two specials, and sometimes I'll even give the sergeant wargear if it will help them out. With my Scions army I'm giving every squad two special weapons, and given the short range of the army, plasma pistols are actually seeming like a fairly sound investment!

For my armies:

IG Veterans - These guys always get 3 special weapons, no matter what. Usually I give them 3 plasmaguns, 3 meltaguns or 2 meltaguns and a heavy flamer. Plasmagunners will always have grenadiers (useful against both enemy shooting and self-inflicted plasma wounds). Meltagun squads might get Demolitions, if I have points spare.

IG Infantry - These guys get either Lascannons or Autocannons and, if I'm combining squads, one guy per big squad will have a vox caster. I might also include Grenade Launchers (only with autocannons), Melta Bombs and Power Axes. However, these are all dependant on me having spare points - with power axes being especially rare in my lists.

DE Warriors - If they're going in a Venom, then they'll have a blaster. It makes them more of a threat to units with 2+ saves, and also gives them a chance at taking down a vehicle. With such small squads, I'm not usually losing out on much by going after a vehicle.

If I'm putting them in a Raider with Splinter Racks, then they generally get nothing. In this case, they should be firing at infantry or MCs and so don't need anything else. But, if I have spare points, I will give them a Blaster. As above, an AP2 wound can be useful and it does mean they're not totally defenceless against vehicles (just mostly defenceless ).