Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This came up in a game last night against a Tyranid player

I drop podded some marines into his line armed with 2 Combi-Meltas(one was on a captain) and a Melta gun onto a squad of 3 Tyranid warriors.

Tyranid warriors are toughness 4, 3 wound models.

I scored 2 hits, 2 wounds with these meltas.

Basically, the reason for doing this was because I assumed that I would potentially insta-kill 3 warriors.

The tyranid player understood the ruling behind wound allocation and instant-death to be the following-

Wounds are collected into a wound pool, wounds are allocated, and meltas being double strength causing instant death does not come until after this, and therefore can only kill 1 Tyranid warrior.

The way I thought this would work is-

Wounds are allocated to the squad, not to the model.

Melta's S being double the warrior's T4 would instantly kill it with 1 wound, reducing it to zero. The remaining Melta wounds would then pass on to the next model in the squad.

The store manager sided with the Tyranid player, but another gamer in the store sided with me and the Tyranid player very kindly gave me the benefit of the doubt.

Can someone please explain what was supposed to happen? I feel like the rules in these sections with allocating wounds and instant death are poorly worded, and it might come down to a case of RAI vs RAW.

Instant Death applies when you allocate a Wound to a model.

You allocate Wounds 1 at a time, with armour saves rolled against it, so the order is this:

-Allocate Wound
-Roll Save (only Invun in your example)
-Perform "Instant Death" (remove ALL Wounds)

-Allocate next Wound.

If he questions that method, tell him you are allocating one Wound to his Unit, wherever he wants, and it has S8 (Instant Death). Once he has resolved that, tell him you'd like to give him the second Wound you have left from your Wound Pool.
If he disagrees, ask where in the Rule Book is it written that you resolve ALL Wounds at once?

Wounds are allocated before their special rules are applied (IAW BRB).
In your case, you have only caused two wounds, each which are affected by the ID rule.
ID does not state that additional wounds are created, only that the model is reduced to zero (what if the model in question had 3 wounds instead of two, by the logic you had the first one would either not be dead or the wound would have had to morph into 3 rather than 2)
Also, by that logic, a single lascannon shot would kill 3 guardsman.. or 3 termagants, or 3 of anything at T3.

Just to clarify in your example above, the 2 Melta Wounds (therefore Instant-Death) would Kill 2 Warriors.

This will be the case whether they all have 1 Wound left (So you removed 2 Wounds and 2 Models) or are at full capacity (So you removed 6 Wounds and 2 Models)

2 Melta shots will never remove 3 Models

Wounds are allocated one at a time. The Instant Death rule says that a model that receives an unsaved wound is reduced to zero wounds. I would say that it kills two models.

Right, since I only scored 2 melta wounds I assumed I would only kill 2 Warriors. I only wanted to make sure there wasn't some kind of rules trickery where I could only kill 1.

Yeah I'd agree that 2 warriors would die - Given you can save/look out sir 1 wound from the pool at a time and what not. Just ask your friend where it says you must allocate and resolve all the wounds at once, when he cannot find this (because it's not written anywhere) you win the argument

Right you roll to hit and to wound against the unit. This creates the wound pool (as you've done and got 2 wounds). You then remove wounds from that pool one at a time and apply them to models. The models make their appropriate saves and LoS rolls then you apply the unsaved wound if necessary, only then do you go back to the wound pool.

So in your case you take the first wound apply it to the first model, he takes appropriate saves. In this case no LoS or armour or invuns apply and from the OP I assume no cover save. So the warrior takes an unsaved wound from a S8 weapon. Therefore he is removed as a casualty regardless of how many wounds he has left due to the Instant Death rule. Then you go back to the wound pool and take the next wound. Thus assuming no cover 2 Tyranid Warriors die.

If special rules for wounds happened after you finish the wound pool then rending would never have an effect as you take saves before going back to the wound pool. In fact Ap would be meaningless. I'm not sure how they even think it works but they are wrong. Look at the wound allocation process it is very clear.

Wounds are always allocated 1 at a time, not all at once. This is especially the case of when you score wounds with different rules (such as some of your shots being rending and other being normal). You choose the order they apply individually.

Even just look at it from a fluff perspective. A melta gun turns a nid into a pile of ash, instantly. The next melta shot can't hit that pile of ash.

Two models are dead, there's nothing complicated about this. Your opponents "logic" doesn't make any sense...hes probably played less than 5 total games.

Well I'd say thats been cleared up pretty good, thanks guys.

 kingbobbito wrote:
Wounds are always allocated 1 at a time, not all at once. This is especially the case of when you score wounds with different rules (such as some of your shots being rending and other being normal). You choose the order they apply individually.

I'd make an amendment here.

Even though the Wounds are allocated individually, groups of Wounds (different pools) with Rules apply together.

So you could apply:
1 Rending Wound, 1 Rending Wound, 1 Rending Wound, 1 ID Wound, 1 ID Wound, 1 ID Wound, 1 Wound.

But not:
1 ID Wound, 1 Wound, 1 ID Wound, 1 Rending Wound, 1 Rending Wound, 1 ID Wound, 1 Rending Wound.