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I remember reading somewhere that it was definitely a thing during the Great Crusade Era, has this ever been addressed by GW or even FW?

Yup! FW did it: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_Heresy/Legiones_Astartes/Space_Marine_Legion_Army_List/Legion_Troops/Legion_Reconnaisance_Squad/LEGION_MKIV_RECON_SQUAD.html

 Robisagg wrote:
Yup! FW did it: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_Heresy/Legiones_Astartes/Space_Marine_Legion_Army_List/Legion_Troops/Legion_Reconnaisance_Squad/LEGION_MKIV_RECON_SQUAD.html

That is really cool looking. I prefer this to Scouts.

 HillyKarma wrote:
I remember reading somewhere that it was definitely a thing during the Great Crusade Era, has this ever been addressed by GW or even FW?

Yes. The didn't use scouts squads back then. Everyone was in power armor.

 Bookwrack wrote:

 HillyKarma wrote:
I remember reading somewhere that it was definitely a thing during the Great Crusade Era, has this ever been addressed by GW or even FW?

Yes. The didn't use scouts squads back then. Everyone was in power armor.

And then Horus had to come along and ruin everything!

The traitor legions took all the good armor, and left behind big boxes of cod pieces. And thus the scout squad was born.

 Bookwrack wrote:
The traitor legions took all the good armor, and left behind big boxes of cod pieces. And thus the scout squad was born.

I wouldn't be surprised if when FW gets to Ultramarines, if they equip there Recon squads almost exclusively in scout carapace armor as a proto-codex astartes adherence.

The option already exists for the recon squad.

"Recon Armour" is essentially 40k-era scout armour; dropping protection of power armour but giving infiltrate and move through cover to the wearer.

The difference is that marine recon squads are fully-trained marines. The Legions were bigger and had much more established training capabilities - they didn't field neophytes until they thought they had reached the fighting prowess of full battle-brothers.

I'm pretty sure you can take the recon squads in scout armour, so scout armour definitely was a thing in the Horus Heresy.

Edit: Ninjad. Locarno you really are a sneaky lictor...

Yeah, giving the Sniper rifles to the people who've actually learned how to shoot properly (By marine standards), like the Space Wolves do, makes more sense.

Speaking of Power Armoured Snipers, a Sniper unit is one of the major things missing from Chaos Marines.

Well, that and WS3/BS3 newbies with access only to what looted equipment they could grab, but that's more fluffy than anything.

Does anybody else think GW kind of got the fluff on scouts ass backwards anyway? I mean, they specialise in conducting operations deep behind enemy lines, where they will always be outnumbered. They are also expert marksmen who can make use of sniper rifles, as well as heavy weapons. Surely this would be a role for some of the most experienced and talented marines in the chapter, not the rookies?!

Warden wrote:
Does anybody else think GW kind of got the fluff on scouts ass backwards anyway? I mean, they specialise in conducting operations deep behind enemy lines, where they will always be outnumbered. They are also expert marksmen who can make use of sniper rifles, as well as heavy weapons. Surely this would be a role for some of the most experienced and talented marines in the chapter, not the rookies?!

The scout concept has always seemed a bit....odd.

Marine specifically don't use camouflage, and relatively few chapters actually emphasis surprise tactics/infiltration and whatnot, so then why do neophytes spend so much time learning how to be sneaky and subtle when that sort of thing is ultimately the purview of the Imperial Guard/Storm Troopers. Seems kind of like wasted training, unless one is a Raven Guard/Mantis Warrior/Blood Raven or whatnot. Space Wolf and Black Templar neophytes make a hell of a lot more sense (BT in particular; battlefield training alongside full marines in conventional roles, also provide more expendable forces to protect more important marines).

Warden wrote:
Does anybody else think GW kind of got the fluff on scouts ass backwards anyway? I mean, they specialise in conducting operations deep behind enemy lines, where they will always be outnumbered. They are also expert marksmen who can make use of sniper rifles, as well as heavy weapons. Surely this would be a role for some of the most experienced and talented marines in the chapter, not the rookies?!

I like the ORIGINAL concept, where they weren't special forces, just more of a general nuisance: go behind the lines, kill anyone you can, avoid anyone you can't, report anything interesting.

Then Ian Watson's Space Marine happened, which was fine in and of itself because the scout squads were deployed to do the above, except when the protagonists find themselves forced into a position where they have to get some serious heroics done in order to prevent the chapter getting massacred, which was still fine because hey, protagonists. But then someone had a pre-Mat Ward Mat Ward moment and said: HEYL YEH, LETS HAVE THEM DO THAT HERO STUFF ALL THE TIME.

GW's scout fluff back in the day was meant to kinda feel like what Spartans did with their youth soldiers in training, where they were to mean to learn how to fend for themselves the hard way. So I understand where they're coming from, but from a modern perspective it of course doesn't make the most sense. Part of the lack of power armor for scouts would likely be the relic worship and veneration of power armor making it something they aren't yet worthy to wear. That said, in 40k there really should be two different scout squads one representing the newer recruits and one representing the normal marines acting in that similar capacity.

locarno24 wrote:
The option already exists for the recon squad.

"Recon Armour" is essentially 40k-era scout armour; dropping protection of power armour but giving infiltrate and move through cover to the wearer.

The difference is that marine recon squads are fully-trained marines. The Legions were bigger and had much more established training capabilities - they didn't field neophytes until they thought they had reached the fighting prowess of full battle-brothers.

I know it does. I just meant that fluffwise I'm betting that there will be some mention of Ultramarine neophytes taking to the field as recon squads wearing exclusively Scout carapace as a sorta prototype of Roboute Guilliman's Codex Astartes doctrine that's lead to how Scouts are now presented in the main codex.

But scouts aren't really like new recruits.
They're still trained and whatnot, just like anyone else.
I'm pretty sure that being in a scout company is just kind of like a probationary period.

MajorStoffer wrote: Black Templar neophytes make a hell of a lot more sense (BT in particular; battlefield training alongside full marines in conventional roles, also provide more expendable forces to protect more important marines).

Wat?

Interspersing lighly armored troops with heavily armored troops so they can get mulched by the anti-tank firepower being leveled at them?

That's just a good way to kill lighly armored troops, lol.

Warden wrote:Does anybody else think GW kind of got the fluff on scouts ass backwards anyway? I mean, they specialise in conducting operations deep behind enemy lines, where they will always be outnumbered. They are also expert marksmen who can make use of sniper rifles, as well as heavy weapons. Surely this would be a role for some of the most experienced and talented marines in the chapter, not the rookies?!

Yeah, a lot of people.

MajorStoffer wrote:

Warden wrote:
Does anybody else think GW kind of got the fluff on scouts ass backwards anyway? I mean, they specialise in conducting operations deep behind enemy lines, where they will always be outnumbered. They are also expert marksmen who can make use of sniper rifles, as well as heavy weapons. Surely this would be a role for some of the most experienced and talented marines in the chapter, not the rookies?!

The scout concept has always seemed a bit....odd.

Marine specifically don't use camouflage, and relatively few chapters actually emphasis surprise tactics/infiltration and whatnot, so then why do neophytes spend so much time learning how to be sneaky and subtle when that sort of thing is ultimately the purview of the Imperial Guard/Storm Troopers. Seems kind of like wasted training, unless one is a Raven Guard/Mantis Warrior/Blood Raven or whatnot. Space Wolf and Black Templar neophytes make a hell of a lot more sense (BT in particular; battlefield training alongside full marines in conventional roles, also provide more expendable forces to protect more important marines).

No, it's not odd at all. Marines specifically don't use camouflage, and relatively few chapters actually emphasize surprise tactics/infiltration and whatnot. Marines sprint though gunfire and kill everyone who was shooting at them; it doesn't matter what their squads are called, they are all assault troops, because if you are in bolter range it's not because you stood around and waited. Yeah, it helps to have power armor, but you also have to be the most experienced ant talented marines in the chapter, because if you can't kill the enemy four or five or twenty times faster than they can kill you, your plan isn't going to work.

Scouts are the recon troops because they aren't good enough at killing people to allow themselves to be seen. They are stealthy in the sense that they have to use cover and concealment to avoid dying, and they're better at it than normal Guard because they are marines. They are not good enough to take cover behind the bolt rounds that have just fired at every enemy in range.

changemod wrote:
Speaking of Power Armoured Snipers, a Sniper unit is one of the major things missing from Chaos Marines.

Well, that and WS3/BS3 newbies with access only to what looted equipment they could grab, but that's more fluffy than anything.

I think being a chaos space marine pretty well precludes being a sniper. A sniper conceals himself so that he can choose his targets carefully without having to defend himself, and so that his targets won't see him and take cover. He has to rely on the units around him to protect him, and to do the actual fighting that occupies the enemy while he waits for his shot to come along. A chaos army isn't really populated with guys you want to trust on those fronts. I don't think you can have a group of recon-marines who say to the other squads to go ahead, do the real fighting while we act as unobtrusive as possible and make shots more or less while we feel like it.



For that same reason, you're right, there should be newbies all over the place. New chaos marines might spend lots of time brawling and marauding, but there training is probably going to suffer. Take the marines in an nth founding chapter that turn traitor. Normally, they have fourteen hours a day of firing rites and battle practice. If they lose that structure, the bottom percentage of them, like a lot of the reserve marines, are going to drop to bs3, at the minimum. Then from the other direction, without as rigid of a hierarchy, the marines who maintain their skills or are very talented are free to promote themselves out of basic squads and become havocs, bikers, cult marines, chosen, or the champions of whatever group of lesser marines they can scrape together. The remaining guys are going to put a whole lot of emphasis on physical confrontation, so I think they can have ws4, but I think the basic troops squads, not havocs, not raptors, not bikers, the basic troops squads, have got to be bs3 and ld7.


There isn't any reason to be good or maintain standards. You know how at various times people have asked where the Lieutenants, Exalted Champions, Apothecaries, and Techamarines all are? Well, without the professional military hierarchy of a chapter, they are all going to be out there on their own, and they are going to create a huge demand market for thugs and bodyguards. Those bs3 guys are little warbands for every single guy who has even the slightest specialist talent to trade on. This is even true for really strong legion-style warbands that have territory and resources, because the hierarchy is still going to a), distribute retinues to senior marines as favors and b) put those marines in charge of recruits and lower quality marines so that the resources can be well looked after.

 HillyKarma wrote:
But scouts aren't really like new recruits.
They're still trained and whatnot, just like anyone else.
I'm pretty sure that being in a scout company is just kind of like a probationary period.

I just mean they're the most recently indoctrinated, even if that isn't a complete indoctrination. Even if they are well trained, guardsmen are "well trained" too. Implicitly, the difference between a Scout and a full tactical marine is just the years and decades of experience.