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BaronIveagh wrote: You keep trying to frame this discussion as that I'm alleging that the US was solely responsible, and it wasn't.
Because that has been the tone of your argument. You've repeatedly framed the US involvement as the most significant component of Afghanistan's present state without regard for British, Soviet, and Afghani agency.
Ultimately worse for everyone. Worse for the Afghanis who have passed the 30 year mark of only occasionally interrupted war. Worse for the Soviets, setting them up to fight in a war that was, ultimately, unwinnable. Worse for the US because in the end they face a beast partially of their own making. Worse for the world from the huge amounts of opiates produced there for the illicit narcotics trade. Worse for the Muslims, as it only fuels western stereotypes. Worse for the Christians, who have been forced to flee. Worse for the Buddhists, who's shrines were brought low with American made ordnance. Worse for the Hindus and a dozen other faiths as their children are fed into the maw of war.
Stop and think about the good that might have been done with the untold billions that have been spent by every side in this debacle. The advancements and achievements that might have been possible. What a better world it might have been, if instead of tools of war, men had turned a hand toward the arts of peace. What good those now dead might have contributed to humanity? What evil? What passion might have been to put to paper, to pixels, to stone? All we can do is scoop up the burned ash of the Library and wonder what wonders were lost to madness and death. A billion fragments of possible finer worlds that slip though out fingers like sand.
I still believe that mankind can do away with greed and hate and intolerance. Life is filled with joy and wonder, even when surrounded by horror and madness.
Someone once said it better then I ever could though.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Stop and think about the good that might have been done with the untold billions that have been spent by every side in this debacle. The advancements and achievements that might have been possible.
Assumptions of "advancement" and "good"? Always fun.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/29 05:49:16
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
I say that US created a situation where the Soviets either committed troops and invaded or appeared weak. Given the global situation at the time, appearing weak was not an option for them.
Assumptions of "advancement" and "good"? Always fun.
Well, peace and prosperity usually trump war, famine, and chaos in most cultures ideas of what is 'good'. Spending money on things besides tanks and guns and bombs usually leads to advancement, even if it's only 'advancement' in the sense that roads are maintained and people can go about their lives without worrying about being shot or blown to kibble.
It's only because of men like you and men like me that they never get it. That war and greed and hate roll on. I admit that I'm mad, dogma, and that the world will indeed be a better place once myself and men like me pass from this world. I like to think that perhaps our last act would be to usher in a better world for all mankind where we are no longer needed. But then there's men like you dogma. Cowards who call lack of empathy 'logic' and demand to know what 'good' is because they are empty men who have nothing but cynicism and greed where in normal men a human heart beats. 'Machine men with machine minds and machine hearts'.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
I say that US created a situation where the Soviets either committed troops and invaded or appeared weak. Given the global situation at the time, appearing weak was not an option for them.
Which is an argument that ignores the role of the PDPA.
Well, peace and prosperity usually trump war, famine, and chaos in most cultures ideas of what is 'good'.
Sure, but pretending that Afghanistan would be peaceful and prosperous if only the Soviets and Americans spent their money differently is naive, and ignores the nature of Afghani politics.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
I like how you're now only considering things labelled as wars, whereas your earlier usage of the term was based on violence or distasteful actions.
You asked about war being prevalent, not about being ruled by cruel tyrants. Granted, it's splitting hairs, but I did answer your question. It's not my fault you phrased it badly.
Which is an argument that ignores the role of the PDPA.
Yes, because their leadership should have known better than to be killed by the Soviets once they decided to intervene and replaced by such enlightened comrades as the ambassador to Czechoslovakia, who promptly gave the invasion his rubber stamp.
Sure, but pretending that Afghanistan would be peaceful and prosperous if only the Soviets and Americans spent their money differently is naive, and ignores the nature of Afghani politics.
Well, we'll never know if that's true or not, now, will we?
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
