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As the title say, now that baal preds lost scout and moved to heavy support i no longer see the point in taking that over a sicaran since for 20p more you get a main gun that is 2x times the range, +1 s and +2 shots that also ignores jink saves.
But it doesn't end there you also get av 13/12/12 and a hull mounted heavy bolter and to top it all of its fast, can take LC sponsons and/ or armored ceramite.

What do you think? Is there a reason to take a baal over a sicaran?

The only I can think of is if you don't want to buy the extra book for the rules. The sicaran is superior in every way.

A few reasons.
1. Not all tournaments allow FW. Even some casual clubs don't care for FW.
2. Money
3. You can only field one Sicaran vs. up to three Baals.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
A few reasons.
1. Not all tournaments allow FW. Even some casual clubs don't care for FW.
2. Money
3. You can only field one Sicaran vs. up to three Baals.

The whole ¨ No FW ¨ is something I think of as a bit silly but that debate is already covered in another post!
( FW does carge you the soul of your firstborn! )

But I am talking from a purely gameplay perspective/ rule.

The no FW doesn't sound at all silly. Given the power differences between the FW tank and the normal BA tank, it's highly reasonable to not want FW stuff in your games.

Mavnas wrote:
The no FW doesn't sound at all silly. Given the power differences between the FW tank and the normal BA tank, it's highly reasonable to not want FW stuff in your games.

in this case i think its more a case of Baal preds loosing Scout and being moved to Heavy support, in FA the Baal was a nice choice in a otherwise unused section of the FOC and with scout gave us some nice outflanking options and also being able to move 24' (12 scout+ 12 cursing speed) and roast some faces! turn one!
But the most important thing is that in the old codex the baal wasn't competing for space in the FOC with sicarans/ vidicatiors/ Stromravens/ dev squads.

Why ever take Baal preds at all?

Mavnas wrote:The no FW doesn't sound at all silly. Given the power differences between the FW tank and the normal BA tank, it's highly reasonable to not want FW stuff in your games.

Martel732 wrote:Why ever take Baal preds at all?

This is the crux of it really. It's not that the Sicarian is super OP, it's just a lot better than the Baal.....because the Baal is garbage where it is right now.

To me, the BA heavy slot is actually the "tri-las pred and Stormraven slot". I'm over Vindis as a choice that matters because MCs laugh at it, as does anything in cover.

Rephrase the question - why take any space marine vehicle over a Sicaran? Oh yeah cause forge world isn't really part of the game. thanks.


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 Carnage43 wrote:

Mavnas wrote:The no FW doesn't sound at all silly. Given the power differences between the FW tank and the normal BA tank, it's highly reasonable to not want FW stuff in your games.

Martel732 wrote:Why ever take Baal preds at all?

This is the crux of it really. It's not that the Sicarian is super OP, it's just a lot better than the Baal.....because the Baal is garbage where it is right now.

The sicaran is in wave serpent territory. It's only a little bit less points efficient.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Rephrase the question - why take any space marine vehicle over a Sicaran? Oh yeah cause forge world isn't really part of the game. thanks.

What is your reasoning behind saying that FW isn't really a part of the game?

My opinions on the matter can be summed up in this entire thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/629916.page

Martel732 wrote:
Why ever take Baal preds at all?

Exactly this. The Baal is a horrendous waste of points in comparison to normal preds in the BA dex now. Yes its ok against light infantry... exactly what death company, assault squads, scouts, VVs, bikes, anything with a blast/large blast, even tacs are good againt. So what does a baal cover that isn't already overly covered by everything else?
It being moved to heavy was big. But losing scout and outflank is MASSIVE!
The flamestorm version has gone from a decent choice in an awful codex to the second worst choice (after Tycho) in a decent codex.

Sicarans on the other hand are the joint best choice for any marine army (alongside rapiers and the typhon).


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 Xenomancers wrote:
Rephrase the question - why take any space marine vehicle over a Sicaran? Oh yeah cause forge world isn't really part of the game. thanks.

The question was about whether a Sicaran is a better choice than a baal. You don't believe forgeworld is part of the game. So why are you interested in comparing them? Why even comment on the thread? Not really helpful at all. Thanks.

Poly Ranger wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why ever take Baal preds at all?

Exactly this. The Baal is a horrendous waste of points in comparison to normal preds in the BA dex now. Yes its ok against light infantry... exactly what death company, assault squads, scouts, VVs, bikes, anything with a blast/large blast, even tacs are good againt. So what does a baal cover that isn't already overly covered by everything else?
It being moved to heavy was big. But losing scout and outflank is MASSIVE!
The flamestorm version has gone from a decent choice in an awful codex to the second worst choice (after Tycho) in a decent codex.

Sicarans on the other hand are the joint best choice for any marine army (alongside rapiers and the typhon).


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 Xenomancers wrote:
Rephrase the question - why take any space marine vehicle over a Sicaran? Oh yeah cause forge world isn't really part of the game. thanks.

The question was about whether a Sicaran is a better choice than a baal. You don't believe forgeworld is part of the game. So why are you interested in comparing them? Why even comment on the thread? Not really helpful at all. Thanks.

Seems like I found a soulmate!

Haha. I hate this whole FW isn't official bollocks that a minority of closeminded people in the community flame about. My IA:2 is my favourite 40k publication!

Forgeworld is most definitely a part of the game, just like all the supplements, we as players have the choice to use them or not and as gaming groups we have the choice to exclude them from most events or let them ride. its all choice, so to say someone is wrong in the matter is negligent.

Now at the matter at hand, Sicaran is a superior HS choice but the biggest downside as mentioned earlier is you only get one, they are good but not broken and invincible, the can and will get focused down.

Another reason someone would run Baal is fluff, not everyone is balls out competitive but some enjoy the novelty of the units.

I just wish the Baal still had its scout :( the BA codex seemed well put together but as with all the codexs, someone at GW doesnt think and just flushes **** down the toilet

As others have said, it's more that the Baal is junk, and the Sicaran tends to be pretty good. A Fast vehicle tri-las Pred seems pretty good too.

A fast tri-las Pred vs a Sicaran is a tougher choice. The Sicaran is cheaper and ignores Jink, whereas the Tri-Las is able to take out heavier stuff. It comes down to what you play against, imo. (Sicaran vs Wave Serpents, Tri-Las vs Knights)

People saying no to FW are House-Ruling it, just as you can say no to Fliers, Knights, Riptides, Wave Serpents, purple coloured die, opponents in red t-shirts and so on. It's up to the players, but don't pretend like these house-rules are official or more right than people who play differently.

Okay, I'll bite, why the Sicaran battle tank so awesome ?

Or at least point me to what rulebook to find the stats for it, so I can see for myself.

Really the sicaran is only limited by its forgeworld status and the fact that its pretty expensive as far as models go. It is definitely better than the Baal pred, though its definitely better than most tanks so thats not saying much.

Saying the baal pred is "garbage" is also a bit of a stretch. If your army needs dedicated anti armor, go tri las pred. If you need a catch all tank, the baal pred suits your needs perfectly. Its why i still use mine.

It's not a stretch at all, because this game punishes "catch all" units very harshly. Heavy bolters are bad, and 24" guns on a predator hull are bad as well.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not a stretch at all, because this game punishes "catch all" units very harshly. Heavy bolters are bad, and 24" guns on a predator hull are bad as well.

This is hilarious. Not so long ago people were talking about how awful the lascannon was and how a TL lascannon is statistically worse than a TL assault cannon against every target and every AV. Now that a couple bloggers have mentioned "oh the baal pred isnt as good anymore" everyone and there mother is suddenly shouting "zomg the baal sux hurdcurr!!!" Im betting half of you have never played with or against one =p

I think you all miss the point. The Sicaran is miles ahead of every piece of SM armor. It's laughably overpowered. it basically quadruples a daka preds firepower and costs roughly double...and ignores cover..Yeah - I think I can see why you wouldn't want to take a baal over this cheese wagon.

 th3maninblak wrote:

Saying the baal pred is "garbage" is also a bit of a stretch. If your army needs dedicated anti armor, go tri las pred. If you need a catch all tank, the baal pred suits your needs perfectly. Its why i still use mine.

Let me rephrase: it's garbage compared to the Sicaran. For 10 points more, you get significantly better armour, and better firepower, and they compete for the same slot.

Okay, I'll bite, why the Sicaran battle tank so awesome ?

Because it's a Fast tank with AV 13/12/12 and a Twin-Linked Autocannon that fires 6 rending shots that ignore jink. Considering how popular things like Wave Serpents are, that's pretty good.

Not sure where the loyalist variant is, but the Chaos one is in IA:13.

Seriously? BA player since 1995 here.

The Baal sucks because closing to assault cannon range exposes the crappy side armor to a huge portion of the enemy list. The Baal wasn't really that great back when it was in the FA slot, it was just more AV 13 you could squeeze into a list. And the TL lascannon turret was way over priced.

Now that the lascannon turret is properly priced, it's by far the best choice over all. 48" S9 AP 2 weapons are valuable and allow the predator to keep its AV 11 sides away from the opponent.

 adamsouza wrote:
Okay, I'll bite, why the Sicaran battle tank so awesome ?

Or at least point me to what rulebook to find the stats for it, so I can see for myself.

the rules for it can be fond here (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_VOLUME_TWO_SECOND_EDITION.html)

the ting that makes it so awesome it that for 135p you get a fast av 13/12/12 vehicle that is armed with a heavy bolter and a heavy6 rending autocannon that ignores jink saves, couple this with a par of heavy bolter sponsons for infantry killing or a pair of LC for tank hunting.
On top of this you can take armored ceramite which makes it immune against melta.

Because you want a flamer on your Baal Predator?
I had to keep my laughter in while I typed that.

The Sicaran Battle Tank is okay, I do not see it as an auto-include.
I like to call it the Baal Sicaran because it is what a Baal Predator should be.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you all miss the point. The Sicaran is miles ahead of every piece of SM armor. It's laughably overpowered. it basically quadruples a daka preds firepower and costs roughly double...and ignores cover..Yeah - I think I can see why you wouldn't want to take a baal over this cheese wagon.

It doesn't ignore cover, it ignores jink saves only!

 th3maninblak wrote:


Let me rephrase: it's garbage compared to the Sicaran. For 10 points more, you get significantly better armour, and better firepower, and they compete for the same slot.

To be precise( and a pain in the ass ) it 20 p more!

 erinil0905 wrote:


To be precise( and a pain in the ass ) it 20 p more!

I stand corrected, I had a brain fart and thought the Sicaran was 10 points cheaper than it is

GrafWattenburg wrote:

 erinil0905 wrote:


To be precise( and a pain in the ass ) it 20 p more!

I stand corrected, I had a brain fart and thought the Sicaran was 10 points cheaper than it is

If only!

It's not that the Sicaran is that good, it's just that the rest of Space Marine tank options are fairly mediocre to bad.

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's not a stretch at all, because this game punishes "catch all" units very harshly. Heavy bolters are bad, and 24" guns on a predator hull are bad as well.

This is hilarious. Not so long ago people were talking about how awful the lascannon was and how a TL lascannon is statistically worse than a TL assault cannon against every target and every AV. Now that a couple bloggers have mentioned "oh the baal pred isnt as good anymore" everyone and there mother is suddenly shouting "zomg the baal sux hurdcurr!!!" Im betting half of you have never played with or against one =p

I own 6 baals:
2 solo flamestorms
1 flamestorm/heavy flamers
1 flamestorm/heavy bolters
1 solo assault cannon
1 assault cannon/heavy bolters

The flamestorms are useless now. The assault cannon baals are okish. But why choose okish when you can choose great?

And the tl AC over tl lascannon debate you have taken out of context. That was always (as far as I've seen it) a discussion on a raven, where 24" doesn't matter, and it is on a vehicle with both ceremite and is a flyer, so is not worried about melta and is hard to hit. None of which applies to a baal.


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I'd like to state for the record to everyone here, despite common consesus, I found the flamestorm with it's scout synced amazingly with BA, as it was a unit which took firepower off other units, much like vindis, yet was still likely to achieve something before it died. Also reserving 3 flamestorms, especially if you took heavy flamers with them (I often proxied my solo flamestorms as heavy flamer varients), meant that opponents would often huddle in the centre to avoid the outflanking flamewall. Now it is complete garbage for its points. Not even worth the cost of a solo auto pred, let alone a auto-las pred!


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Also being able to run 3 and still be able to take ravens, preds, vindis and SICARANS (in a single detachment) was a massive advantage!