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Was in a debate earlier with an opponent about Blasts and FMC's.

I targeted another unit withmy Blast Weapon (that did not have Skyfire) and it scatter onto the FMC in Swooping Mode.

I (Player A) argued that since it did not have a clause like Zooming Flyersthat specifically states it can't be hit by Blasts, it would be hit by my weapon.

Opponent (Player B) said that since the Blast Weapon did not have Skyfire and the FMC rules state that shots can only be resolved as Snap Shots, the Blast could not be resolved against the FMC.

Who was right, A or B? Evidence to support would be useful to have, thanks

It appears you were correct.

The "Hard to Hit" rule for Flyers and FMCs is different. So Swooping FMCs can be hit by scattering blasts and by template weapons as long as they were not the target.

I'm not sure, I'm not sure if the clause is even needed in the Flyers section, as it's already in the Snap shots section that blasts, templates or weapons that do not roll to hit can not snap fire.

If the clause was stated in neither FMC or Flyers rule, is the blast being resolved as a snap shot? Does the fact its scattering matter at all since the hard to hit rule doesn't concern targets? Can a blast weapon target a FMC normally?

IIRC there used to be some talk of HardtH and target based rules for blasts in 6ed, but in 7th I don't know if the HardtH wording changed or I just don't see it.

If you have a Blast weapon with skyfire, you still could not shoot it at a Flyer due to its Hard to Hit. The same is true if a Blast scatters over a flyer, it cannot hit the Flyer.

FMC, on the other hand, lack that wording for their Hard to Hit, so a Blast or Template weapon with Skyfire (Heldrake) can hit a FMC. The same is true with any Blast that scatters onto a FMC.

 Nem wrote:
I'm not sure, I'm not sure if the clause is even needed in the Flyers section, as it's already in the Snap shots section that blasts, templates or weapons that do not roll to hit can not snap fire.

If the clause was stated in neither FMC or Flyers rule, is the blast being resolved as a snap shot? Does the fact its scattering matter at all since the hard to hit rule doesn't concern targets? Can a blast weapon target a FMC normally?

IIRC there used to be some talk of HardtH and target based rules for blasts in 6ed, but in 7th I don't know if the HardtH wording changed or I just don't see it.

But you are able to hit invisible targets with scattering blasts. I think it's an analogue.

 koooaei wrote:

 Nem wrote:
I'm not sure, I'm not sure if the clause is even needed in the Flyers section, as it's already in the Snap shots section that blasts, templates or weapons that do not roll to hit can not snap fire.

If the clause was stated in neither FMC or Flyers rule, is the blast being resolved as a snap shot? Does the fact its scattering matter at all since the hard to hit rule doesn't concern targets? Can a blast weapon target a FMC normally?

IIRC there used to be some talk of HardtH and target based rules for blasts in 6ed, but in 7th I don't know if the HardtH wording changed or I just don't see it.

But you are able to hit invisible targets with scattering blasts. I think it's an analogue.

I get invisibility, those rules state ;

enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit

Snap shots;

Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, suchs as Blast, cannot be fired as a Snap Shot.

Hard2hit

Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

Invisibility is concerned with how the shot is fired at them, Hard2hit seems concerned how a shot is resolved against the model with H2H. Not convinced when talking about a unit which is suffering an effect from a weapon, when not the initial target is not then also mentioned as a target throughout the rules...

Wounds inflicted by weapons with the blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit

Maybe I've been playing blasts wrong forever, but I allocate the wounds to the units which received the hits from the blasts. Or' Target unit' isn't set so much in stone.

I can't remember if this was a FAQ in 6th with scattering blasts, There was with the different in the Hard to hit rules between flyers and FMC's but not sure about scatters, maybe its my confusion around the word resolved, seems phrased much better in the invisibility rule, then again that is newer.

 Nem wrote:
Hard2hit

Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

Invisibility is concerned with how the shot is fired at them, Hard2hit seems concerned how a shot is resolved against the model with H2H. Not convinced when talking about a unit which is suffering an effect from a weapon, when not the initial target is not then also mentioned as a target throughout the rules...

See the highlighted in your quote, this only applies to the target of the shot.

If the blast scatters onto a unit that wasn't the target, then rules that apply to the target would not apply. There is only one target with a shooting attack, and it isn't alwasy the one that gets blown up! This is verry different to the the Flyer version of Hard to Hit, which makes them immune even if they are not the target.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
Hard2hit

Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

Invisibility is concerned with how the shot is fired at them, Hard2hit seems concerned how a shot is resolved against the model with H2H. Not convinced when talking about a unit which is suffering an effect from a weapon, when not the initial target is not then also mentioned as a target throughout the rules...

See the highlighted in your quote, this only applies to the target of the shot.

If the blast scatters onto a unit that wasn't the target, then rules that apply to the target would not apply. There is only one target with a shooting attack, and it isn't alwasy the one that gets blown up! This is verry different to the the Flyer version of Hard to Hit, which makes them immune even if they are not the target.

If target unit does matter (as in, only used in the rule book to describe the step taken in the shooting phase), then the scattering blast wouldn't wound the FMC anyway as per the blast rules I quoted.

Wounds inflicted by weapons with the blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit

I actually believe 'target' is also used in both these instances to refer to the unit that got hit by it, rather than the 'target unit' which is a step in the shooting process.
/Or I play blasts wrong./

Or, Target unit could be transferable phrase. There's a few things that can shoot at more than one unit, I don't know if we resolved on those threads if every unit hit was the 'target unit' for purposes of charging, etc.

 Nem wrote:

I actually believe 'target' is also used in both these instances to refer to the unit that got hit by it, rather than the 'target unit' which is a step in the shooting process.
/Or I play blasts wrong./

I do like that interpretation.... And it would mean a clear difference between "invisibility" and "H2H" (if read in that way)

The term "Target unit" seems very out of place and doesn't match with the paragraph right above it. "- each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer's line of sight."

The problem is that you can't generate a snapshot after you have already shot the weapon and are on the generate hits step, and unless they say that automatically hitting shots don't "hit", it offers them no protection.

I guess an extreme way to read this is you tally up all the hits and apply them to the "target unit" first, but I think someone just slipped up and meant "hit unit". Blame GW's editors.

Yep, this interpretations make blasts unable to hurt other units other than the targeted one even if they're under the blast marker.

 koooaei wrote:
Yep, this interpretations make blasts unable to hurt other units other than the targeted one even if they're under the blast marker.

Which doesn't make any sense. The reason you can't hit an invisible target with an attack is because one doesn't know where said target is supposed to be (the weapon operator won't just fire blindly because the battlefield is a huge place). But, a misfired shot could easily stray into the location of an invisible creature.

He was simply remarking that that strangely added line of "target unit" if read literally breaks the previous paragraph for Blasts.