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How can I effectively counter this GK list with my CSM?

HQ
Lvl 3 Librayian

ELITE
6 Man Paladin Squad:5 Halberds 1 Hammer, Apothecary
5 Man Purifier Squad: 4 Duel Swords, 1 Hammer, Razor Back DedcicatedTransport.
Vindicare Assassin

Troops
6 Man Terminator Squad: Incinerator, 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer

FAST ATTACK
10 Man Interceptor Squad: 2 Incinerators, 6 Halberds, 2 Hammers

HEAVY SUPPORT
2 Dread Knights: Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Personal Teleporter


TIA

Take winged daemon prince, as many as you can. They are WS 9 so laugh at WS 4 GK units


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Take vindicators as well

That's actually a pretty terrible way of countering GKs. Flying Daemon Princes are crazy expensive, and they're not particularly durable unless they're flying around, in which case you won't be assaulting. Since you have to wait a full turn on the ground, if you do drop down you'll get shot to death quickly.

Vindicators are a better bet, though. He doesn't have Draigo, which means you can drop pie plates on his Paladins. Without Draigo to tank wounds, Paladins go down quickly as long as you have Str 8 AP2. You won't get them in one go, not as long as he's smart enough to spread out, but for relatively cheap you'll be able to put the hurt on him.

A Heldrake will make quick work of the Purifiers and Interceptors. GKs have zero anti-flyer, especially this guy's list. All those Incinerators are useless. Toast the power armor guys, then vector strike the Dreadknights.

Maulerfiends will also serve you well, as long as they avoid the Dreadknights. Take something that gets lots of plasma and focus fire on the Dreadknights, then follow up with the Maulerfiends. Without Draigo, if you kill the Dreadknights he'll have trouble hurting Maulerfiends with that list. Dreadknights are still fairly fragile for their points, if you hit them with enough AP 2 they'll go down quickly.

I don't have maulerfiends, but with what I have I put this together. Thoughts?
+++ CSM 1850 (1828pts) +++

++ Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [Burning Brand of Skalanthrax, Mark of Slaanesh, Melta bombs, Power Armour, Sigil of corruption]
····Power Weapon [Power Sword]

+ Elites +

Chaos Terminators
····Terminator
········Combi weapon [Combi-plasma]
········Power Weapon [Power Sword]
····Terminator
········Combi weapon [Combi-melta]
········Power Weapon [Power Sword]
····Terminator
········Combi weapon [Combi-melta]
········Power Weapon [Power Sword]
····Terminator Champion [Gift of Mutation]
········Combi-Weapon [Combi-melta]
········Power Weapon [Power Sword]
····Terminator with Heavy Weapon [Lightning Claw, Reaper Autocannon]

Chosen [4x Chosen, 4x Replace boltgun w/ Plasma gun]
····Chosen Champion [Bolt Pistol, Boltgun, Close Combat Weapon]

Plague Marines [2x Plague Marine]
····Plague Champion [Bolt Pistol, Plague Knife]
········Combi-weapon [Combi-melta]
····2x Plague Marine with Special weapon [2x Meltagun]

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [9x Chaos Space Marine with Boltgun, Icon of excess, Mark of Slaanesh, Meltagun, Meltagun]
····Aspiring Champion [Bolt Pistol, Boltgun, Close Combat Weapon, Melta Bombs]
····Chaos Rhino [Combi-bolter, Warpflame gargoyles]

Chaos Space Marines [9x Chaos Space Marine with Boltgun, Lascannon, Meltagun]
····Aspiring Champion [Bolt Pistol, Boltgun, Close Combat Weapon]

Noise Marines (Troops) [Icon of Excess, Noise Marine w/ Blastmaster, 4x Noise Marine w/ Bolter, 4x Noise Marine w/ Sonic Blaster]
····Noise Champion [Close Combat Weapon]
········Ranged Weapon
············Combi-weapon [Combi-plasma]

+ Fast Attack +

Heldrake [Baleflamer]

+ Heavy Support +

Chaos Vindicator [Extra Armour, Havoc Launcher, Warpflame gargoyles]

Chaos Vindicator [Extra Armour, Havoc Launcher, Warpflame gargoyles]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

Equally skilled, I believe the GK list is far superior to the CSM one.

Most of his army is 2+, your power swords, noise marines, the Burning Brand and Heldrake will only have interceptors as target (maybe the purifiers if they do come out of their rhino). Drop ALL of them except the 1 Heldrake, it is more than sufficient to handle his PAGK.


In a straight beat em up fight, I don't think you can handle the GK.

He doesn't have much shooting weaponry.
If you want to outshoot, i recommend obliterators and special weapon chosens to stand a chance, you require VoF/AP2.

Otherwise, I recommend you taking a MSU or mobile route, as his army only the interceptors and NDKs are mobile. eg. chaos spawns, flying daemon princes, nurgle bikers, deepstriking models etc.

Or a simple msu rhino spam with flying princes, and spawns, and run circles around him. The only real consistent shooting I see are the NDKs.

That GK list is pretty bad, virtually no Psycannons, Incinerators on TDA, Pallies with no special weapons ... it's ... just ... terribad.

Just take stuff that is immune to Bolter fire, anything AV11 or above will ignore most of his list. Yes, the 2 DKs are tough, and the Interceptors are pretty good (Halberds are a sub-optimal choice), the rest just isn't set up very well. Take lots of Reaper Autocannons, lots of Plasma, and lol.

SJ

Yea... its an odd list, especially because no psycannons on the Pallies, which is generally the only reason you take them...

Pretty much all your demon engines and soul grinders etc. will wreck him in shooting and probably make half their points back in melee.

Take Dreads with powerfist and maulerfiends. You need AP2

if you can get him I'd sldie abbaddon into the list. he'll chew through a GK termy squad right fast

the CSM just have to focus on shooting the GK, and not get into a fistfight.

The GK have nearly non-existent shooting.

Nonexistent shooting?

Every single one is toting a stormbolter.

You mean they have no long range shooting.

In my experience, the only way to tackle Grey Knights' cheese is to bring your own cheese.

You'll have difficulty beating a gk list with chaos, I'm yet to beat them 1 on 1 with mine. Problem lyes with the dk, we haven't our own power unit to counter it as even our best unit (daemon prince imo) gets insta killed by 1 unsaved wound! And with pe its likely to survive. Could possibly bring 2? Its not as bad as seeing duel broken mc (like the dk and others) but could claim you victory! Make sure to make them nurgle though!

Daemon Princes are nothing to Grey Knights. I've beaten a few with standard Strikes (We keep Hammers everywhere)

If they wound it, they can beat it in CC.

Armor up or go long range shooty, and stack up the AP2.

Spam Helldrakes like CSM players used to in 6th, that'll work.

said they sucked in comparison to what a dredknight player brings to the table. I just said to take more princes :p orrrrr play flying circus! Beat his cheesy ass to the ground!

Bel'akor is also pretty good I'm sure?
also csm lack the ability to be good at shooting, sure auto cannon havocs are good, but wounding dk's on 3s then a 2+ save, has never killed one for me, plagues work good with duel plasma yes, but again with their 4++ there is hardly enough shots to kill one yet alone 2!
probably best to pack up your troubles in an old kit bag! or try out daemons or ia13, they bring a little bit of strength to the book that could help you out


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:
Spam Helldrakes like CSM players used to in 6th, that'll work.

Ap3 vs 2+ is a waste of points :p

 total0 wrote:
said they sucked in comparison to what a dredknight player brings to the table. I just said to take more princes :p orrrrr play flying circus! Beat his cheesy ass to the ground!

Bel'akor is also pretty good I'm sure?
also csm lack the ability to be good at shooting, sure auto cannon havocs are good, but wounding dk's on 3s then a 2+ save, has never killed one for me, plagues work good with duel plasma yes, but again with their 4++ there is hardly enough shots to kill one yet alone 2!
probably best to pack up your troubles in an old kit bag! or try out daemons or ia13, they bring a little bit of strength to the book that could help you out


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:
Spam Helldrakes like CSM players used to in 6th, that'll work.

Ap3 vs 2+ is a waste of points :p

Yes, as Total 0 said; exploit your access to the cheesy Daemons, who are the third best army, and spam broken forgeworld stuff and then you'll be on par with the Grey Knight cheese.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suggested Helldrake spam as they lack anti air and anti vehicle, so although you won't do much damage to him; he won't do much damage to you either so you can have a nice and boring game against Grey Knights (just like all games against them)

Personally I don't find the forgeworld options that bad, sure the weapon battery is good, but pricy and easily taken out like other artillery. I do find the fliers that are on offer are strong but are slightly weaker than IOM have because we lack machine spirit shanagins.

I do partially agree daemons are a strong army, but only if you power build there are others like eldar for example that are competitive even when lesser choices are made. The daemon dex also fills in the holes that csm has, makes it stand a better chance of winning against stronger units like dk, tides and all those strong shizle

An idea for an addition to your army is ariman (how ever you spell it) he's pretty beefy! People may say he's broken but he's worse than a dk,wraith knight, riptide ect

Still broken though.

Even if they aren't using power builds there is no denying that Daemons are the third most powerful army.
Daemons are still competitive using 'lesser' units not that anyone takes them anyway). Even mono-God armies are xompetitive.

Ahriman is hardly comparable to them, compare him to Draigo instead since both are characters with psychic shenanigans.
People sy that he's broken because he is.

 total0 wrote:
I do partially agree daemons are a strong army, but only if you power build there are others like eldar for example that are competitive even when lesser choices are made.

Indeed, it's easy to make a crappy daemon list. You have to try in order to make a bad Eldar list.

There's only one...well maybe 2 units in the entire Eldar book that almost every single Eldar player will tell you to avoid. Both are in elites...and that's about it for bad units in the book.

Ive not denied they're a strong army, I wouldn't say 3rd strongest but that's my opinion. I'd have to disagree with lesser units still being competitive in the book, furies, blood letters are 2 examples. While like ductvader has said, you have to aim to make a bad eldar list, which is also the case for other armies but certanly not daemons IMO.
Mono god armies I've found don't seem to do that well when you compare how well they can work if you use them with other gods as support? Example, pure nurgle= too slow, pure tzeench= poor combat ect.

Again I have a conflicting view on Ahriman, I see the riptide, dk and all those shanagins to be far more cheesy, sure he's good in the psycer phase but in order to cast off 3 same power spells you need the dice, which is far more difficult and reliant on enough dice and you get to dtw against it. Where as the riptide is reliable on shooting and easily guaranteed a hit with its pie plate due to markers, and a dk is awesome in combat and never leaves home without his civil partner!

 total0 wrote:
dk is awesome in combat and never leaves home without his civil partner!

I liked that part

Where would you rank Daemons then? It is largely accepted that the order goes:
Eldar
SM
Daemons
Necrons
Tau
Everything else

Bloodletters are good vs tactical marines and SoB.
Furies are just the Vespid of Demons; utterly useless.

Well Daemons can deepstrike, so Nurgle's 'slowness' doesn't really matter.
Tzeentch doesn't care about being bad in combat as this is a shooting and psychic spam edition.

Yes, but they aren't comparable. One is a MC, the other is a named character dude. No one says that the Riptide isn't chessy , (Grey Knight players will deny their cheese however).

Yes, you need loads of dice but when you can battle brother in some Daemons and get pink horrors as troops and a Tzeentch herald; you will have more than enough dice.

Tyranid PenTyrant is at the top right now.

It's like Flying Circus, but better in every way.

 ductvader wrote:
Tyranid PenTyrant is at the top right now.

It's like Flying Circus, but better in every way.

I meant generic armies rather than specific lists but yes, PenTyrant is king.

I'd have to rank them 4th or 5th if I'm honest. Blood letters are good on paper yes, but they lack the number of attacks and are t3. I guess you just answered your own question of mono god armies being bad as its a shooty edition so khorne sucks as its all cc based :p so a mono khorne list will suck.

My comparison was that those MC's are more cheese than Ahriman is, not denying he's strong but not as strong as they are.
Indeed you can ally in for dice, I've said daemons fill in the holes that the dex has but you still need at least 10 dice if you want to cast the same 3 powers off same turn, and that's without the dtw role :p

 total0 wrote:
I'd have to rank them 4th or 5th if I'm honest. Blood letters are good on paper yes, but they lack the number of attacks and are t3. I guess you just answered your own question of mono god armies being bad as its a shooty edition so khorne sucks as its all cc based :p so a mono khorne list will suck.

My comparison was that those MC's are more cheese than Ahriman is, not denying he's strong but not as strong as they are.
Indeed you can ally in for dice, I've said daemons fill in the holes that the dex has but you still need at least 10 dice if you want to cast the same 3 powers off same turn, and that's without the dtw role :p

So you probably think that Grey Knights also suck in combat since they 'lack volume of attacks'

Mono Khorne has Bloodthirsters and Doggies... Enough said.

Ye, but they aren't alike at all! That's like comparing a Dreadnought to a Kabalite warrior and then declaring the Dreadnought cheesy.

Note that I haven't called Ahriman cheesy so you're poll is kinda pointless

10 dice isn't hard to achieve:
Ahriman is a level 3 psyker?
Tzeentch Herald can be a level 3
Pink Horrors can be level 3.

Therefore just the three of them will give you between 10 and 15 dice.

Also, you're wrong about them being 4th or 5th best.

moving away from argueing cheese etc, I'll note the vindicator is one of the options for AP2 in the CSM list, and I belive is the only ranged AP2 in codex: CSM. it might not be a bad idea to ponder a few of them

Don't CSM also have plasma cannon Hellbrutes?

Also denies Paladins a lot of buffs.

Thanks all for the advice. I'll let you know how I go.