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dont know if this is supposed to go here or general discussion?

so ive been contemplating fast attacks in my ork armies, and i was wondering what you all thought about the benefits and downsides to warbuggies, and if they have wat it takes to replace warbikers.

warbikes: everyone knows these guys, but has the new ork codex effected them? how do you guys field them? does ere we go really hurt them or does their toughness still make them effective? also, ive heard from some that warbikes are useful as fast shooting hit and runs, mainly using their guns and avoiding running them in combat (at least against the tougher stuff). is this true, is it better to use them for this roll, or just to run them into assault asap.

warbuggies: gw has yet to give this unit an updated model, but they at least updated its stats to make it worth buying (or at least make conversions). the changes are as follows;
-went from 30 points to 25 points
-squadrun capacity changed from 1-3 to 1-5
-now has the outflank special rule

now the obvios differences are
A)vehicle vrs infantry, warbuggies being vehicles dont have to take moral tests that would plague warbikes, but warbikes can participate in combat, unlike the buggies which have no options for melee (not even tank shock), but buggies can get skorchas which would make up for their lack of melee with heavy flamer death
b)squad size. 15 max warbikes compared to 5 max warbuggies. numbers might seem importnant to orks, but the bikes need almost always be bought in large numbers so to make up for leadership tests *(makeing them a far more expensive investment in your army compared to buggies).
c)jink. jink on bikes, especialy with their +1 boost to cover saves if they turbobosted, makeing for very survivable orks, but all these things effect their shooting. buggies still have to follow cover save rules for vehicles, but buggies arnt that big, so maybe it woulndt be so hard to keep them in cover

then the not so obvious differences
d)buggies get outflank, this has great influence on their battlefield role as they can hit the enemy backlines potentially faster than warbikes.
e)the dakka is slightly different. dakka guns are basically bigshootas, but with drastically decreased range (bigshootas - 36 inches, dakka guns - 18 inches). damage output is the same since both buggies and warbikes have twinlinked weapons. though buggies have more variety since they can switch out for twinlinked rokket launchas (or get the skorcha upgrade)

so this is my formulateing opnion
-warbuggies are far better at ranged shooting than warbikes, but their survivabilty is questionable. they are only effective in close quarters if you give them skorchas (still, skorcha buggie squads could have a hay day against horde lists much more than warbikes can).
-warbikes are 7 points cheaper than buggies (but you most likely have to buy a bunch of them anyway since they might not be as effective in numbers smaller than 10), their dakka isnt as good as buggies, but they still have ork handfulls of dice melle goodness. warbikes arnt as flexible on the battlefield as buggies since their lack of a variety of upgrades and they cant outflank like buggies.

any of you have any opinions on these two units. does the warbuggie have wat it takes to dedicate fast attack slots to, or should gamesworkshop not even consider designing a new model if the unit never becomes popular enough.

i just read though my own post a realized its very disorganized.
i just want to start a discussion of warbuggies vrs warbikes

Buggies and bikes have completely different roles. There's no need to compare them at all imo.

People often compare buggies and koptas, however. Now it's a bit closer. Generally it all boils down to squad/squadron size and the exact role you want them to execute. 1-2 koptas are better due to better average durability, mobility, tactical variety. For pure range support and terrain block, 4-5 buggies outperform 4-5 koptas due to being vehicles - means no ld and ability to get wrecked.
Koptas have a character-scout use too, so for this role koptas are unique. It's very effective in smaller games where a kopta-star can easilly outperform biker-star just due to a scout move. Or when you want to scout a forcefield mek behind your blitz brigade.

i guess the comparison is hard to make between bikes and buggies, but the main reason i bring it up is that i have the opprtunity to get some fast attack, and i was wondering if it would be more benificial to get buggies (or koptas) instead of warbikes?

What do you want them to accomplish? Do you need pure ranged support? Point-grabbers? Flank-pushers? A squad to stick your bikerboss-painboss into? What's the rest of your army? How many pts are you willing to spend on them? Do you need a mobile power klaw?
Stormboyz are also a decent FA. I don't like ork planes but some might claim they're good too.

Another point on survivability (often overlooked) is coherency.
War buggies have a 4" coherency rather than 2", which is a great help vs. Blasts.

Everything changes when you factor in the ability to take supporting characters. With a painboy to give them FNP and a warboss to lend moral support to the mob (and a klaw in close combat), a full mob of 17 bikers is something to be feared. This alone has changed the biker's role considerably from the last codex: Having found the perfect balance between cost and resilience, warbikers now lend themselves to being used agressively.

51 twin-linked big shoota shots are, simply put, overwhelming for anything or anyone on the receiving end. T 5, 4+ and FNP makes them quite hardy targets, and more or less ensures that bad Mob Rule rolls won't kill your squad outright. So don't worry to get close up and personal with the foe - you can even charge them if you want to, provided there's something left to assault after the shooting phase.

Against so much fast-moving goodness, Buggies pale in comparison. But realistically, FOC constraints (you need two HQs to pull it, that's the real limiting factor) mean you won't be able to squeeze more than one biker mob in a single-FOC game. This leaves two FA slots open, and that's where the cheap, sneaky buggies fit.

ok, so if i want a small point adition to my army, then go for warbuggies, but for an army dedicated to fast attack then the warbike squadrun would wreck. i guess ill have to get both and try them out in my next games (i have a campaign coming up against tau, chaos marines, ig, and sm).
thanks for your coments, now just to figure out cheap conversions for both warbikes and warbuggies (at least until i have enough to buy official models).

All i can tell you is warbuggies are the cheapest out of the 3 to convert. Another cheapo and universal option are stormboyz. Magnetise whatever looks remotely as jumppacks, rokkits or whatever and you've got a squad of stormboyz/choppaboyz. I've recently made 4 rokkit packs out of plastic clay myself. It was quite fun! 1 is a big pack for nob, 3 are smaller ones. Now i'm planning to cast them and get a few more copies to create a 10-12 strong squad.

Or just pay $8.25 for ten space marine jump packs from games workshop to slap on slugga and choppa boys and bam! Ten stormboys

speeking of which, has anyone ever complained that your converted stormboyz are not in mid flight (and thus taller models) like the actual models?

Actual models vary. Some of them are in mid air, some are just a bit above the ground holding on a rock - the newer kit. Newer kit has cool heads with hats and nades in the mouth and such stuff. Detalisation of packs is great too.
The old metal models are just boyz with packs. Packs are much less detailed but are still looking good. Plain and good.

And no, noone has complained yet. People actually like proper conversions. Mine look more like the old ones (not Old Ones, note)...cause they're basically boyz with packs. I'll post pics when i'm done with them completely. Also need to paint the guyz. Oh, i'm not a fan of painting cause there are a ton of details i want to do properly and it's just so time-consuming. But i do love modelling.

When you field stormboyz, people are like: "Huh, stormboyz that is? First time i see them on table. Regular boyz with packs that can run 2d6 but kill 1/7 squad, you say? Y you no run bikes like everyone does?".
And than somewhere around turn two or three: "What the hell?! Those things have ENORMOUS charge range!!!".

 koooaei wrote:
All i can tell you is warbuggies are the cheapest out of the 3 to convert. Another cheapo and universal option are stormboyz. Magnetise whatever looks remotely as jumppacks, rokkits or whatever and you've got a squad of stormboyz/choppaboyz. I've recently made 4 rokkit packs out of plastic clay myself. It was quite fun! 1 is a big pack for nob, 3 are smaller ones. Now i'm planning to cast them and get a few more copies to create a 10-12 strong squad.

As a converter who likes to make most if not all my models capable of being multi-role..... how did I not think of this!?! This is a gem kooooaei! I might proxy some next game with blutac an some rockets, as I spent hours forcing myself to paint my choppaboyz and im loathe to drill them!