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Not so much that I don't feel like I know the answers, but more like I'm struggling to find the actual rule to show to someone else:

1) If a model is trying to pile in during a combat, say at Init 1, but friendly models that have already made their pile in are blocking it,can it leap over those models to get into combat? I can find the movement part of the rules where it says you must move around, not through, friendly models... and I can't find permission to ignore this, but if this restriction is true, I've not seen it played that way in RTTs or even GT qualifiers.

2) In a recent game I had Castellax fighting Ork Boys. Both took their pile ins at Init 3, after all attacks were done, there was no one in base to base contact with an enemy model, but there is only about an inch separating the two units. If there were no other attacks, and looking at the rules for Pile In, it appears that combat ends and neither unit is engaged. So no one can take the end of combat Pile In moves.

first, any models pile in if this will bring them into base contact with an enemy locked in combat

doesn't apply, no one is locked

attempt base contact with a friendly model that is locked

none of that applies

last part, requires a locked enemy

none are

The book seems to think that without 6" of separation, combat cannot end, but by their own Pile In rules, any separation between all models in those units after all attacks are resolved would end the combat. Again, this comes up a ton, I run my opponent through the rules, they concede, but look at me like no one has ever interrupted the rules that way before. I suddenly feel very TFG, but see no reason why I should.

3) in the same game, I get multi assaulted by 100+ orks in a single unit. Ghazzy is in that unit, and he wants to challenge me... I have a warlord 15" from him. Both are locked in the same combat, is there any reason my warlord can't take that challenge (Ghazzy was already injured and blinded, if you're wondering why I would want a piece of that with a Battlesmith)?

4) Pile In moves can't break cohesion? And if that is true, then what if in a multi turn combat with multiple units three parts of a large unit (see above) are no longer in cohesion... which locked models suddenly try to disengage and move away from combat to hold the unit together... or can Pile In moves abandon cohesion and it is just restored as the combat resolves? page numbers or section references for this one please.

1)

Page 48, Start of Initiative Pile In wrote:Pile In moves follow the same rules as charge moves...

Page 46, Move Charging Models wrote:Charging models still cannot move through friendly or enemy models...

2)

Page 47, Locked in Combat wrote:If a unit has one or more models in base contact with an enemy model (for any reason), then it is locked in combat. [...] Units are no longer locked in combat if, at the end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.

(Emphasis mine), from this, we can see that the unit is locked until the end of the assault phase. I would say that the first sentence could have been phrased better.

3) Unlike 6th, I can't seem to find any restriction on accepting the challenge aside from being in the same combat. Even the restrictions on 'swapping' models to get the challengers into B2B have an 'imaginary' last resort.

Honestly not sure on 4)

 Quanar wrote:
1)

Page 48, Start of Initiative Pile In wrote:Pile In moves follow the same rules as charge moves...

Page 46, Move Charging Models wrote:Charging models still cannot move through friendly or enemy models...

Thanks, knew it was somewhere. Well its a good thing I got this one right, because I got the next one wrong... apparently I just avoid pages 46-47

2)

Page 47, Locked in Combat wrote:If a unit has one or more models in base contact with an enemy model (for any reason), then it is locked in combat. [...] Units are no longer locked in combat if, at the end of any phase, they no longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.

(Emphasis mine), from this, we can see that the unit is locked until the end of the assault phase. I would say that the first sentence could have been phrased better.

Ah, there it is, thanks. I am a sort of TFG. However, if I was defending this position, I'd point out that right before "determine who can fight" it states that if initiative pile ins cannot bring two units back together, all remaining initiative steps are lost and go to the resolution... ah nevermind, but then end of combat pile in still goes... well shoot, I guess I need to drop the quiet authoritarian thing when making cases that still make me feel like I've wronged people after I'm done. Funny thing is, I totally talked two players into this and then still pulled off the sportmanship prize at the tourney. Though, maybe its because I argued to my disadvantage both times (told them they could break off and charge) and it really had no effect on the game.

3) Unlike 6th, I can't seem to find any restriction on accepting the challenge aside from being in the same combat. Even the restrictions on 'swapping' models to get the challengers into B2B have an 'imaginary' last resort.

Yeah, its seems just wrong, but Ghazzy had to challenge, and if I didn't accept I'd die for sure

Honestly not sure on 4)

For #4, there are no longer any rules that i can find that allow you to ignore unit coherency in close combat. So since pile in moves follow the same rules as charging, yes, you have to finish the movement in coherency.

Although there is actually a gap in the rules there. For charging, you move your first model, and then each subsequent model has to move to within coherency of a model from their own unit that has already moved.

For pile ins, we are told to follow the same rules... Which would suggest that you pick your first model to pile in, and then further models would have to move to within coherency of another model that had already piled in that phase, rather than to coherency of any model in their unit as it is normally played...


Probably not intentional, as it would make pile ins quite awkward..



Automatically Appended Next Post:
For #3, note that for both issuing and accepting a challenge, the character needs to be engaged, not just locked.

Yeah, in the Ork v IH battle mentioned, #2 never happened, but before some Nobz piled in, I saw its potential, remembered the tourney awkwardness, and wanted to mention it.

As for #3, well we'll just take a long scene from Chariots of Fire and watch Ghazzy and Battlesmith Wayland charge across the combat to each other.

On #4, that's exactly what we did insaniak, and yes it was supper cumbersome.

For the first time since the initial 7th Ed learning curve, this battle was played looking everything up for every facet of the game. It went super slow, but I was amazed as how much we weren't playing quite right and how many rule nuances had been glossed over. I think the big assault at the end, found me getting a little sloppy, since clearly I was struggling on some of the Pile In minutiae.

I'd strongly recommend playing a "question everything" match every now and then. I would not recommend doing it against 3k Orcs in a massive unit.

 insaniak wrote:
For #3, note that for both issuing and accepting a challenge, the character needs to be engaged, not just locked.

Ah, I totally failed to read to the end of the sentence! P101, end of Accepting A Challenge: "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges."

 Lobukia wrote:
Not so much that I don't feel like I know the answers, but more like I'm struggling to find the actual rule to show to someone else:

1) If a model is trying to pile in during a combat, say at Init 1, but friendly models that have already made their pile in are blocking it,can it leap over those models to get into combat? I can find the movement part of the rules where it says you must move around, not through, friendly models... and I can't find permission to ignore this, but if this restriction is true, I've not seen it played that way in RTTs or even GT qualifiers.

Remember

So it may have been that they weren't piling in, but were still able to swing because of the second point.