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In using Space Wolves in small numbers as allies for my Grey Knights, I have actually found I very much enjoying painting 'em, and some of their units have treated me very well. As such I am planning to expand my collection, and had a few questions, the primary of which is, what does math-hammer and real-world experience say about Bloodclaws vs. Grey Hunters. Right now I own five of each (as bodies to hold objectives back-field), but obviously would be expanding one or both of these.

Does the Wolf-Banner with Grey Hunters push them ahead of Bloodclaws, over-all? Does Lukas the Trickster add any value to Bloodclaws, in turn? I am curious about any thoughts in general regarding these two Troop units, their best uses, etc...

I feel like a unit of Bloodclaws and Lukas in a Rhino could fly under the radar in lists with Thunderwolf Cav, etc... and yet still do work, but I likewise could just as easily say "Oh well... MSU and buy more TWC..." as well.

Finally, as a bonus question. I have always love the aesthetics of Dreads. They were a first love that got me into even looking into 40k way back when. This of course means I am familiar with how mediocre they tend to be in practice. Are any of the SW Character Dreads (Bjorn, Murderfang), worth taking with a Pod?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Does the Wolf-Banner with Grey Hunters push them ahead of Bloodclaws, over-all? Does Lukas the Trickster add any value to Bloodclaws, in turn? I am curious about any thoughts in general regarding these two Troop units, their best uses, etc...

The Wolf Banner really helps with Grey Hunters, but I find that it's the humble bolter which just pushes them past in terms of usefulness. Even for only a couple points less, losing bolters means that Blood Claws put out half as many shots, but hit even less because of their mediocre BS (and this also hurts them in CC, which is supposed to be their niche), and are only good on the charge.

Transports also come into play. On foot, Blood Claws are at least on par with Grey Hunters (and the more Blood Claws you take, the better they are). However, throw them in Rhinos or Drop Pods, and the differences become far more clear. Since you can't assault out of the basic transports, then the more than halved shooting of Blood Claws is a significant disadvantage. I guess it comes down to the player's preference, but I'd much rather spend the +10pts to get a better unit which can actually contribute to my battle plan if needed, although if you're just looking for a reasonably tough unit to hold objectives then Blood Claws can do that for you.

I'm not sure that Lukas is worth the extra points, maybe in a fun list but otherwise he seems too expensive overall (although you can probably tell I don't care for Blood Claws anyway so take that with some salt).

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I feel like a unit of Bloodclaws and Lukas in a Rhino could fly under the radar in lists with Thunderwolf Cav, etc... and yet still do work, but I likewise could just as easily say "Oh well... MSU and buy more TWC..." as well.

Yeah I imagine it could work, but remember that they can't assault when they get out of the Rhino, which could make them a bit of a waste of points compared to some MSU Grey Hunters.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Finally, as a bonus question. I have always love the aesthetics of Dreads. They were a first love that got me into even looking into 40k way back when. This of course means I am familiar with how mediocre they tend to be in practice. Are any of the SW Character Dreads (Bjorn, Murderfang), worth taking with a Pod?

Not from what I understand. Murderfang seems like he'd be great for a threat overload list, but from what I hear, Shield + Axe Dreads are basically the only ones you can get to stay alive these days.

Thanks for the advice... even if, sadly, it wasn't what I hoped. I tend to play less-powerful, and less competitive armies, and hoped this would be the one where the models I liked, happened to align with what could be viable. :-p

Totally viable unit. Take a big unit with some flamers, put them in a stormwolf with a wolf priest.

If you want to compare CC infantry in the SW codex, compare champs of fenris WG vs blood claws. WG with champs of fenris buffs will pull ahead of blood claws in nearly every situation when it comes to wounds caused. WS5 and 2 base attacks beats out WS3 with rage. This is comparing point for point, 10 WG to 15 blood claws, as I believe they cost the same amount.

If you want to be hilarious (and not 100% this is possible) equip your Wolf Guard with 2 bolt pistols. The rules say they come with a BP/CC but can also take anything from melee/ranged weapon list. So you could give them all 2 BP. Now they are dual weilding and essentially rapid firing before the charge.

BC pull ahead with durability to shooting, as there are more bodies, but WG will fit into any transport.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Thanks for the advice... even if, sadly, it wasn't what I hoped. I tend to play less-powerful, and less competitive armies, and hoped this would be the one where the models I liked, happened to align with what could be viable. :-p

Well if you (and your opponents) are not concerned with uber-competitiveness, then you can definitely get away with running Blood Claws, Lukas, Bjorn and Murderfang. Blood Claws are a decent unit, but I just prefer quality to quantity when there's a reasonable option. Lukas and Bjorn aren't bad, they just take up a lot of points that you'll have to figure out how to allocate. Murderfang's the only one who's difficult to figure out, but again, even if he doesn't kill anything he'll take heat away from other units... and when he does kill something it'll be awesome. I've been mostly stuck in competitive matches since the new Dex came out so I haven't had a chance to actually try him yet, but I have him on my shelf waiting to be painted. I'd love to throw him in one of my fun lists.

Blood Claws can be awesome, don't let anyone tell you otherwise, four attacks on the charge is nothing to sneer at. And with up to fifteen models in a unit, that's a heavy sixty attacks. WS3 or not, statistics say that a lot of those hits are gonna land. Unfortunately, at least in my opinion, I only think BC true power comes out when you have a full maxed out unit of fifteen with a Wolf Priest to lead and buff them and then since they need cover to get across the board and something they can assault from, you're looking at a Land Raider Crusader or a Stormwolf for transport. That makes them quite an expensive unit but definitely something for a fun list just to watch your opponent get swarmed by a mass of troops charging out.

Grey Hunters are the standard, can't really go wrong here.

Wolf Guard in PA are good if you have the Champions of Fenris supplement to get the boosts from, I tried them out for the first time last night and besides some crappy rolling, I'd definitely use them again.

Of course this is all just my opinion so take it as you will.

Appreciate all the varied opinions and math-hammer guys. Thank you.

Right now my "shopping list" for SW includes...

- Another box of Grey Hunters (as I also need the included Wolf Claws for...)

- Another box of TWC (I really want to run 4 or 5 + Wolf Lord)

- Storm Wolf/Storm Fang kit

- A couple of Dreadnaught kits (so I can build the character Dreads for fun sake).

I'm thinking that list should probably be purchased in that order based on the advice here.

gwarsh41 wrote:If you want to be hilarious (and not 100% this is possible) equip your Wolf Guard with 2 bolt pistols

Unfortunately, that's not valid. Sounded cool when you said it, so I checked

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Well if you (and your opponents) are not concerned with uber-competitiveness, then you can definitely get away with running Blood Claws, Lukas, Bjorn and Murderfang

That's certainly an important point to keep in mind when posting on forums like this one. People here tend to think only in terms of maximum efficiency, so you get a lot of powerful, but boring and limited lists.
If you're going to a tournament and want to be competitive, then that's the advice you need.
If you're playing at home with mates, then the codex gets a lot fatter with loads more options that are fun and viable to try out.

That being said - I am a super fluffy player, but even I think blood claws needs a delivery system - which is why I have sooooo many Sky Claws and Swift Claws
I also have some aircraft and land raiders, and since blood claws got a price drop in this codex I've been planning to add a normal (foot) unit, but I haven't finished building them yet

I agree with all the people who have said you should go for a maximum sized unit. I'm going to go with the common thinking of giving them flamers
I think you should take the pack leader upgrade, and definitely take a priest to lead them (wolf priest or rune priest.... both have applications), bringing the total to 16 models minimum.

I'm keeping my LRC for my terminators (who need the frag launchers), so the blood claws will be flying in either a Storm Eagle or Storm Wolf


I also have Bjorn (the old metal one I've had since like 1993), the new shield dread and a converted AoBR dread with a load of weapon options and drop pods to go around.
I think an Alpha Strike with at least 1 dread in a pod, plus some foot units in pods is certainly a viable tactic

Yeah, just actually check the codex, bummer on no dual pistols. Too bad TDA cannot fire 2 weapons, a few of them with dual storm bolters could have been hilarious!

 karlosovic wrote:

gwarsh41 wrote:If you want to be hilarious (and not 100% this is possible) equip your Wolf Guard with 2 bolt pistols

Unfortunately, that's not valid. Sounded cool when you said it, so I checked

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Well if you (and your opponents) are not concerned with uber-competitiveness, then you can definitely get away with running Blood Claws, Lukas, Bjorn and Murderfang

That's certainly an important point to keep in mind when posting on forums like this one. People here tend to think only in terms of maximum efficiency, so you get a lot of powerful, but boring and limited lists.
If you're going to a tournament and want to be competitive, then that's the advice you need.
If you're playing at home with mates, then the codex gets a lot fatter with loads more options that are fun and viable to try out.

That being said - I am a super fluffy player, but even I think blood claws needs a delivery system - which is why I have sooooo many Sky Claws and Swift Claws
I also have some aircraft and land raiders, and since blood claws got a price drop in this codex I've been planning to add a normal (foot) unit, but I haven't finished building them yet

I agree with all the people who have said you should go for a maximum sized unit. I'm going to go with the common thinking of giving them flamers
I think you should take the pack leader upgrade, and definitely take a priest to lead them (wolf priest or rune priest.... both have applications), bringing the total to 16 models minimum.

I'm keeping my LRC for my terminators (who need the frag launchers), so the blood claws will be flying in either a Storm Eagle or Storm Wolf


I also have Bjorn (the old metal one I've had since like 1993), the new shield dread and a converted AoBR dread with a load of weapon options and drop pods to go around.
I think an Alpha Strike with at least 1 dread in a pod, plus some foot units in pods is certainly a viable tactic

Well, as I said, I LOVE playing 40k for fun, so I am a fan of fluffy, half-way decent, but cool units. Thing is, between the wife and I, we own three large, fun armies, that at best are "mid-tier" competitive. As I start adding some tournaments to my hobby experience, I was just hoping maybe Wolves could be an army I enjoy building/modelling fluff wise, but which gave me a better chance with tournament-wise.

Getting ready for a 1500pt Highlander event, I was going to try pure SW, which, thanks to Highlander, means no spamming super units, and requiring more diversity.

The Wolves have done a 180 from the previous book. Grey Hunters are more expensive when similarly equipped than previously, and markedly worse due to losing Mark of the Wulfen and the good Wolf Standard. On the other hand, Blood Claws are amazing because they're dirt cheap.

60 point Troop choices mean you can get your compulsories out of the way and have a lot more points to spend on Elites and Fast Attack that will actually kill stuff.

I'd say definatley attian the champs of fenris suppliment. For freezies of couse since GW is kind of evil disguised as good. (like the imperium of man) And it opens up more options. I love murderfang but yeah, he has no shooting and is a big target but hits hard when able to get in to cc. Like said above just playing wiht friends bring him. BCs with Lukas with wolf priest in a stormwolf and you'll do some damage. Look into lone wolves also, they are just awesome, although I so miss our old mark of the wulfen for just a bare bones LW with mark.

Exalbaru wrote:
I'd say definatley attian the champs of fenris suppliment. For freezies of couse since GW is kind of evil disguised as good. (like the imperium of man) And it opens up more options. I love murderfang but yeah, he has no shooting and is a big target but hits hard when able to get in to cc. Like said above just playing wiht friends bring him. BCs with Lukas with wolf priest in a stormwolf and you'll do some damage. Look into lone wolves also, they are just awesome, although I so miss our old mark of the wulfen for just a bare bones LW with mark.

Can't have Lucas AND wolf priest

 karlosovic wrote:

Exalbaru wrote:
I'd say definatley attian the champs of fenris suppliment. For freezies of couse since GW is kind of evil disguised as good. (like the imperium of man) And it opens up more options. I love murderfang but yeah, he has no shooting and is a big target but hits hard when able to get in to cc. Like said above just playing wiht friends bring him. BCs with Lukas with wolf priest in a stormwolf and you'll do some damage. Look into lone wolves also, they are just awesome, although I so miss our old mark of the wulfen for just a bare bones LW with mark.

Can't have Lucas AND wolf priest

Yes, you can. Fourteen BC, Lukas and a Wolf Priest, stuff 'em inside a Stormwolf and Bob's your Uncle. The only thing you can't do is use the Wolf Priest's leadership because of Lukas's Rebellious rule.

My bad.
For some reason I've always thought his special rules meant other ICs couldn't join his unit.