Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Soooo... I did not see a thread on this exact topic, though I saw an open thread about what you would do to fix your armies. I wanted to make the topic Ork focused. Latley I have not been doing too well playing orks. Most of my games consist of me removing models and not even getting the chance for a save. Even when I get a save it mostly 5+ or 6+. I even ran different forms of the Green Tide and still lost. Ive ran Gazkulls council of Waaagh... and lost, and the formation in the ork codex, and lost. The people I play with range from very competative to somewhat competative.

Sorry for soo much back story but now I present my question. What would you do to fix the Ork codex, I know its problably been discused in other threads, but I want a collective construct I can use to play test. Also if you think the orks need no changing, what list do you run and what tactics do you use, and here is the kicker how, without being shooty.

Here is a couple of fixes I would implement to make the orks better without being OP.

-Old Cyborg armor for all elite and HQ choices and lootas, 5+ inulve save. Mad Dok gets back old rule to give anybody in his detachment cyborg armor.
-'eavy armor upgrades for all with the ere-we-go rule
- New armor that confers a 3+ save for HQ's and Flash Gitz, you can not tell me the the richest orks with the best guns would not have the best armor.
- A sepeart Kustum Mega Force Field that gives Shrouded, like the old codex.
- Gun upgrade options for Flash Gitz, same as old codex, and upgrade options for lootas, pluse BS or ignors cover, something like that
- Two special weapn upgrades for every ten boyz.
-Trukks come with armor 11F 11S 10B with upgrads that can make it 12F 11S 10B.
- Battlewagons get 14F 12S 11B with upgrade choice for 14F13S 11B
- Gorkanat/ Morkanat are upgraded to super heavys so cannot be blown up with one hit
- And for my favorite change. Bring back Old Zogwort, make him Level 3 psycher with the same ability to get the aditional warp charge when enough boyz are around, and bring back the ability to turn people into squigs.

-Old Cyborg armor for all elite and HQ choices and lootas, 5+ inulve save. Mad Dok gets back old rule to give anybody in his detachment cyborg armor.

Yes. I think it's pretty bone-headed that Cybork was added as 6+ FNP. It's as if they decided they didn't want Cybork to give an invulnerable save anymore, but they had to keep Cybork for fluff reasons, so they came up with something completely harmless for it.

-'eavy armor upgrades for all with the ere-we-go rule

I don't really agree with this. Most armies don't get to choose the armor that their troops come with. A Guardian is always a 5+ save. A Space Marine is always 3+. A Necron is always 4+. Orks are actually more flexible than some other armies in that we can give a 4+ save to a unit that is normally 6+.

- New armor that confers a 3+ save for HQ's and Flash Gitz, you can not tell me the the richest orks with the best guns would not have the best armor.

I could see 3+ armor for Big Meks and Warbosses. Flash Gitz I agree should have kept the 4+ armor they came with in the last codex.

- A sepeart Kustum Mega Force Field that gives Shrouded, like the old codex.

I'm on the fence with this one. I think the old codex was too reliant on the Kustom Force Field which either meant the force field was too good or there were issues with the last codex. I tend towards the former. With the new codex I find myself using a better mix of HQ units than before, which I think is a good thing. So overall I tend to think this is a good change, but barely.

- Gun upgrade options for Flash Gitz, same as old codex, and upgrade options for lootas, pluse BS or ignors cover, something like that

Flash Gitz are expensive enough, but they should have come with 4+ armor. In my dreams, Lootas could be upgraded to be twin-linked. But that's wish-listing.

- Two special weapn upgrades for every ten boyz.

Eh. Wouldn't be bad.

-Trukks come with armor 11F 11S 10B with upgrads that can make it 12F 11S 10B.

Why? You'd have to PAY for that upgrade, then your Trukks would be more expensive. The only thing I would have liked is that if Trukks had a special rule to turn an "Explodes!" result into a "Wrecked" result on a 4+.

- Battlewagons get 14F 12S 11B with upgrade choice for 14F13S 11B

I think Battlewagons are plenty tough already. The main issue I have with them in the new codex is that they're too expensive and they only come naked. For 110 points, they should come with the Reinforced Ram and a Kannon for free. If anything the problem with Battlewagons isn't their defense. It's the fact that for the point cost, they have so little in offensive capability. Even with the KillKannon they are laughable as a battle tank. They are only useful as a transport.

- Gorkanat/ Morkanat are upgraded to super heavys so cannot be blown up with one hit

Instead I think they should get about a 40 point price discount. They're fine as they are, but they're just too expensive.

- And for my favorite change. Bring back Old Zogwort, make him Level 3 psycher with the same ability to get the aditional warp charge when enough boyz are around, and bring back the ability to turn people into squigs.

Agreed.

Here's the things that need fixed IMO for the Ork Codex:

Fix the Green Mob table. Just make a result of "6" an auto-success with D3 wounds regardless of the number of Orks or the presence of a character.
Allow Orks to refuse a challenge and still fight as per normal on a successful Leadership test. Something like a "ZOG OFF" special rule.
Allow Nobz to be purchased and distributed like Mek Boyz.
Upgrade the KillKannon to S8, especially since we lost our Boom Gun.
Ork fliers all need about a 20 point cost reduction. Also the Burna Bommer should just come loaded with its missiles for free. If the missiles are going to cost points, they should be worth the points, like S5 AP3 Ignores Cover.
Killa Kans need to have either a 15-20 point cost reduction or an increase to 3 Hull Points.

That said, I think the new Ork codex fares much better in 7th Edition than the old one did in 7th or 6th. However, I find that for it to be viable, taking two CAD is pretty much mandatory, so you can have multiple Painboys, Warbosses, and Big Meks, and also so you can unlock more Heavy Support slots. Too much was crammed into Heavy Support to make one CAD viable above 1000 points. They should have left Lootas in Elites, and maybe moved Killa Kans there as well, and allowed Boyz to take a Battlewagon as a dedicated transport.

I agree that changing Cybork Body was a shame, especially since one of my main 40K opponents plays Grey Knights, meaning I have to be especially carefully with my multi-wound units. It seems as if GW wanted to emphasize that Orks, by and large compared to other more "advanced" foes rely more on built in toughness or things that enhance it further. In this case I think CB should just have been something that gave FNP (5+) which then is boosted to a 4+ if the unit or model already has FNP from another source. This way it synergizes more with the Painboy and gives it actual use of it like on characters like Mad Dok Grotsnik who has both built in FNP and CB. Of course your way works as well given that it was fine before the change.

Other than that the rest of your suggestions seem a little too radical in changes, most of what I think has already been said by Murrdox.

@Murrdox

I think that the main issue concerning the Battlewagon's inherent lack of offensive power is that we should have been given a gunwagon that is specifically our version of a MBT rather than a piss-poor last minute addition of the Looted Tank and Battlewagon "options" of making our own diluted version. The battlewagon should stay mainly within the territory of assault vehicle as GW clearly doesn't know how to mix in transport with assault (i.e. schizo land-raider).

Also in regards to Mob Rule, I think it's honestly fine the way it is. The only thing I would add is that it also applies to Fear tests. If anything the main issue is that we're practically Ld7 across the board short of Big Meks and Warbosses. I think Nobz should have been Ld8 to show their more weathered experience as the biggest/baddest.

In regards to challenges, I think with Mek Boyz and your suggestion of splitting Nobz to different units makes the "zog off" rule redundant especially since Orks are almost always up for a fight. In order to represent that every Ork wants to have a go at the challenger everyone in base contact with the enemy challenger in the first round of combat/challenge may allocate their attacks to them rather than just the Nob/character involved. Maybe call it "Mob 'Em Ladz!".

The only either gripe I don't think you covered is the abysmal options we have for CC. I love the Power Klaw but it would be nice for a little more diversity. I think they should have made the Big Choppa at least have rending base so it would be a decent option to take at its points cost. Also in regards to this change make the 'Eadwompa Killchoppa be AP3 so it at least covers the niche of being able to kill MEQ at initiative without gimping a Warboss' ability to handle 2+ save.

@Murrdox

I agree with most of your analysis. I think that Morkanats and Gorkanants should either be cheaper or be considered super heavys, they are way to slow and vulnerable to stay as is. My options for the tukks I believe would give more useful veriety in an ork amry, say if you want to put lootaz, burnas, or flash gitz in something besides a battlewagon. Although

@Grimskul

I do not think the changes are radical at all, most of them are just bringing back old rules and allowing a couple more units to use them. I completly agree with the lack of veriaty of close combate weapons, I wish we had an equivilent of lighting klaws that could be availuble to boss nobs or maybe 1 per every five nobz. I would love the idea of the eadwompa being ap3.

I would like to also like to get some opinions on some affective non-shoty ork list being used now, besides the green tide, whcih I have

I think that making the morkanaut and gorkanaut a super heavy would freak every other army out/ make them banned in most tournaments. They would be the reason other players QQ about our codex.

With that in mind the Morkanaut and Gorkanaut should get the Invincible Behemoth special rule. This would get rid of their chance at blowing up due to 1 stupid melta on a flyer or a lucky smash from under powered MC that get to make a S10 initiative hit. (This has happened to me ... a lot).

Another change that is needed but already technically too late to change. The fact that our codex has the Stompa. When I argue the downsides of the ork codex with other players what is the first thing they say "You're codex has a stompa". This argument isn't good because we could already take the stompa due to escalation and any other super heavies can be taken by other armies as well. The codex stompa should have new or separate options and or a price reduction. Any game that uses superheavies will see the Kustom Stompa used over the codex one anyway.

I miss old Cybork.

Nobody was using Flash Gitz for points reasons so they cut armor to keep gun.

I liked our old truck rule. I think trucks and wagon are bad because of the nature of vehicle rules not the codex.

The took the Big Shoota from Meks I want it back.

I want a unit of Orkz with heavy armor and can take up to six KMBs or Big Shootas. They could have done it with Kommandos.

They nerfed the dakkajet a bit too much.

Kanz didn't need a reduction in usefulness for an increase in points because you can take six in a squad.

Deff Rolla nerf was excessive. It used to be too good, now it's very bad.

Things I would like to see are:

Cybork returning to it's glory (As been stated)

More variety in terms of our armor options (Would be nice to see other units actually get a save of some kind)

Kanz to get a bit of a price reduction, as they now cost more but essentially don't do anything more than they did before. Especially in a game where armor 11 is laughable and Vehicle rules are terribad.

Battle Wagons to be have meaningful upgrades.

Mork/Gorkanaughts to get some kind of meaningful special rule. They are huge, but don't qualify for Super Heavy status for some reason, but they are just as vulnerable as our other vehicles, despite being much bigger, which makes little sense. They should be a bit more difficult to pop. Or, as others have said, lower their points to reflect their Ork fragility.

Ability to take more special weapons on our troops (As has been said)

More melee options. Orks love to chop stuff up almost as much as they do shoot stuff up. Right now, we have 3 basic melee weapons. A choppa (basic sword with no statline), Big Choppa (2 handed and not really worth taking unless its to save points but not have the character using it be totally useless in CC) and the Power Klaw, which is the auto include. We also got Killsaws, but their distribution is not very good, only Mega Armored users capable of using them, and they are too costly half the time to use. Tankhammers are Ok, but again only usable by 1 unit type...we need more options to play different strats or to make our mobs a bit more versatile.

I'll run a Gorkanaut when it has TL or BS3. I go up against a nid player that constantly gets warp Lance or whatever it is. Popped my shiny new Gorky without even getting into the shooting phase.
Just spit balling here but what about boys being more expensive but they have stock s4 and ws3, with furious charge giving them ws4. It's not a huge deal but once again just throwing stuff out here. I wish that boys would be better and more expensive. I find myself needing more boys but with no room to put them in. I can't use 4 full squads of boys, no room on the field. Also I was thinking of a s5 assault 1 gun upgrade on boys, or something along those lines. Not asking for anything op just something to add depth.

I use the cybork as a +1 to fnp, a 6+ if they don't have one. Also, my Ork trukk list involves a couple void shield generators and promethium pipelines at the front of my deployment zone. Works like a charm

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I use the cybork as a +1 to fnp, a 6+ if they don't have one. Also, my Ork trunk list involves a couple void shield generators and promethium pipelines at the front of my deployment zone. Works like a charm

Burna boys work great with those pipes

1: Bring back old Cybork or get rid of it, nobody uses it unless they have left over points.
2: Bring back Old Ramshackle, it was A: Hilarious, B: useful and most importantly C: ORKY!
3: We need a large blast template weapon thats worth a damn. instead we got bubblechucka....which is fine and all but really? IG get about 3-6 Large blast templates that can eat our boyz and in return we get a D6 S, AP weapon?
4: diversity of weapons options. We have a bunch of weapons that are wicked and I would love to use them on my characters and elites and regular nobz but i can't because the weapons that are cool and useful are basically limited to one or two model types and are ridiculously over priced.

Lastly, Every fluff ever written about orks has them surviving massive injuries and regenerating at ridiculous speeds. Why don't boyz have a base 6+ FNP? i mean hell since every weapon in the game has an AP these days we don't get armor saves anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry late post but I love my morkanaut, he is either the biggest star of the game or he dies because he drew ALL the fire in the first turn or two. I chose the Morkanaut over the gorkanaut because of the blast template. At least then he doesn't have a chance to miss per say. With all that said though you never field a Morkanaut without the KFF upgrade, so realistically your running around with a 300pt model thats really not worth that much, Why can't the KFF come stock with the Morkanaut? it needs to drop about 50 points anyway

Ohh and I really forgot to mention this but I was thinking as I look at my Deff rollas slowly collecting dust.....WTF!

Deff Rollas. Basically became a reinforced ram thats twice as expensive but has the incredibly amazing bonus of adding D3 S10 hits to a unit that tries to death or glory.....why would someone not want to use this? I mean they are amazing all you have to do to avoid them is not death or glory and boom you just made my deff rolla useless.

I hear that! I only take the deffrollas on my looted wagons now, that way if I accidentally ram someone, it won't destroy my little tank. At any rate, if all else fails with Orks taktiks, bring yourself a stompa! They is always da right choice fer da job

Dont waste your points on the deff rolla for that reason, a Reinforced ram does the EXACT same thing! you just don't get D3 extra attacks against anyone dumb enough to DoG your tank...and with a looted wagon you shouldnt be tank shocking infantry anyway :-P

 Ghazkuul wrote:
1: Bring back old Cybork or get rid of it, nobody uses it unless they have left over points.
2: Bring back Old Ramshackle, it was A: Hilarious, B: useful and most importantly C: ORKY!
3: We need a large blast template weapon thats worth a damn. instead we got bubblechucka....which is fine and all but really? IG get about 3-6 Large blast templates that can eat our boyz and in return we get a D6 S, AP weapon?
4: diversity of weapons options. We have a bunch of weapons that are wicked and I would love to use them on my characters and elites and regular nobz but i can't because the weapons that are cool and useful are basically limited to one or two model types and are ridiculously over priced.

Lastly, Every fluff ever written about orks has them surviving massive injuries and regenerating at ridiculous speeds. Why don't boyz have a base 6+ FNP? i mean hell since every weapon in the game has an AP these days we don't get armor saves anyway.

Yup, all of this. If we can't get better armour easily, then a standard 6+ FNP would be great. New ramshackle is a pain in the ass, why no invul saves?

Just curious, has an ork list ever won a big tournament, and if soo what was the list

Greentide's doing really good. We'll see LVO results soon.

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
Soooo... I did not see a thread on this exact topic, though I saw an open thread about what you would do to fix your armies. I wanted to make the topic Ork focused. Latley I have not been doing too well playing orks. Most of my games consist of me removing models and not even getting the chance for a save. Even when I get a save it mostly 5+ or 6+. I even ran different forms of the Green Tide and still lost. Ive ran Gazkulls council of Waaagh... and lost, and the formation in the ork codex, and lost. The people I play with range from very competative to somewhat competative.

Sorry for soo much back story but now I present my question. What would you do to fix the Ork codex, I know its problably been discused in other threads, but I want a collective construct I can use to play test. Also if you think the orks need no changing, what list do you run and what tactics do you use, and here is the kicker how, without being shooty.

Here is a couple of fixes I would implement to make the orks better without being OP.

-Old Cyborg armor for all elite and HQ choices and lootas, 5+ inulve save. Mad Dok gets back old rule to give anybody in his detachment cyborg armor.
-'eavy armor upgrades for all with the ere-we-go rule
- New armor that confers a 3+ save for HQ's and Flash Gitz, you can not tell me the the richest orks with the best guns would not have the best armor.
- A sepeart Kustum Mega Force Field that gives Shrouded, like the old codex.
- Gun upgrade options for Flash Gitz, same as old codex, and upgrade options for lootas, pluse BS or ignors cover, something like that
- Two special weapn upgrades for every ten boyz.
-Trukks come with armor 11F 11S 10B with upgrads that can make it 12F 11S 10B.
- Battlewagons get 14F 12S 11B with upgrade choice for 14F13S 11B
- Gorkanat/ Morkanat are upgraded to super heavys so cannot be blown up with one hit
- And for my favorite change. Bring back Old Zogwort, make him Level 3 psycher with the same ability to get the aditional warp charge when enough boyz are around, and bring back the ability to turn people into squigs.

Sorry to hear you are having so many issues. I ran into a lot of those issues when I first start playing the new codex, but now my orks are a force to be feared. Few things first, I like most of your ideas but i disagree with a couple. Personally, I like the change to the kustom force field and the mega-force field. This allow you to put an invul save on a high priority target for your opponent. Mega-force field is stupid good on a super heavy tank or walker. Plus putting guys inside that can repair helps. For the lootas, i think giving them the ability to buy a git-finda would be perfect. Lets face it, most of the time the lootas don't even move. Unless you put someone in mega-armor with them. I do agree with you that Gork/Morknouts should be Super heavy walkers. I feel they were designed for that and then they got knocked down to walkers. I totally agree with the cybork bodies should be 5+ invul again. 6+ FNP is kind of a joke and I just take it on my warlord just in case my pain boy dies. Flash gitz should be able to at lease be able to buy eavy' armor.

Personally, I don't play the formations unless its for apocalypse. You should try a biker warboss with bikes. Zhadsnark from FW is amazing. Also, big mek on a bike and a pain boy on a bike. Just some thoughts.