Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The Ultramarine Drop Pod has doors that open out quite a distance from the core of the drop pod. Units disembarking from said drop pods have to do so within 6 inches of the drop pod. In the case of these long drop pod doors is the 6 inches measured from the core of the drop pod or from the drop pod door? dsf

Sensible answer should be that you use the base profile for the hull measurement, however I do not believe there is any explicit statement or concensus. If you wish to count the doors as part of the hull for disembarkation purposes then you must do so for all purposes, which for example may make it less easy to place where you wish. Consistency is king.

Most players ignore the doors.


If you count the doors for disembarking, you also have to count them when placing the pod, which makes them really impractical on a board with sufficient terrain on it.

the hull itself, the doors should be ignored for all rules purposes.

I measure from the base - that is the parts the units are standing on when the doors open.

 Icculus wrote:
the hull itself, the doors should be ignored for all rules purposes.

Do you have rules to back this up?

Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull, ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements.

Basically it's whether you wish to consider the doors a decorative element or not, but it is not clearly defined. In any case it must be consistent regardless.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
the hull itself, the doors should be ignored for all rules purposes.

Do you have rules to back this up?

Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull, ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements.

Basically it's whether you wish to consider the doors a decorative element or not, but it is not clearly defined. In any case it must be consistent regardless.

The only rules are the open topped transport rules that explicitly say that "....all of the vehicle is considered to be an Access Point (regardless of any base the may have.)"

That said, no one that I know and no event that I have attended considers the doors as access points. They simply use the main hull and fins as the access points.

40k-noob wrote:
The only rules are the open topped transport rules that explicitly say that "....all of the vehicle is considered to be an Access Point (regardless of any base the may have.)"

That said, no one that I know and no event that I have attended considers the doors as access points. They simply use the main hull and fins as the access points.

That's not something I had considered, and seems to make it quite clear to me, then.

By RAW the doors are an access point and so can be measured from for access point/disembarking purposes regardless of whether they are defined by the players as a decorative element, however for other purposes if they are considered a decorative element by the players then they cannot be counted for measuring. If they are not considered a decorative element by the players then obviously they are counted for all measuring purposes.

dsfarwell wrote:
Units disembarking from said drop pods have to do so within 6 inches of the drop pod.

A minor quibble:
The procedure for disembarking is that you (one at a time) place the model in base contact of the access point, then make a normal move. What that effectively means is that on open ground you can disembark within 7" of the vehicle (6" plus the 1" diameter of the model's base). Not a big deal for marines, but for Dreadnoughts... it makes a difference. EDIT: I'm wrong about this, see below.

On the subject of the doors:
If you're going to count the doors as part of the vehicle for the purposes of disembarking, then that makes it very difficult to actually deep strike the drop pod (it has a huge profile with the doors splayed out), and you bring up the issue of whether you can move your own units over the doors (effectively makes the drop pod into this huge piece of impassable terrain). This is a case where slavish adherence to RAW is causing more grief than it's worth - consider all the gargantuan threads arguing about whether you can draw line of sight through drop pods with doors that are glued shut. Best way to resolve this is to just consider the doors to be a purely cosmetic piece of the model.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

dsfarwell wrote:
Units disembarking from said drop pods have to do so within 6 inches of the drop pod.

A minor quibble:
The procedure for disembarking is that you (one at a time) place the model in base contact of the access point, then make a normal move. What that effectively means is that on open ground you can disembark within 7" of the vehicle (6" plus the 1" diameter of the model's base). Not a big deal for marines, but for Dreadnoughts... it makes a difference.

Incorrect. Finish reading the disembarkation rules:
"but it must end its move wholly within 6" of the Access Point it disembarked from"

rigeld2 wrote:

Incorrect. Finish reading the disembarkation rules:
"but it must end its move wholly within 6" of the Access Point it disembarked from"

hah, you're right - the digital edition I'm reading cuts that paragraph off into the next page.

Is that section new to 7th edition, by chance? I remember having an argument about this during 6e.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Is that section new to 7th edition, by chance? I remember having an argument about this during 6e.

No. Been that way for several editions.

I seem to think that in 6th edition the requirement for units to be wholly within 6" was not there, allowing the additional distance of the base diameter, but could be entirely mistaken.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
I seem to think that in 6th edition the requirement for units to be wholly within 6" was not there, allowing the additional distance of the base diameter, but could be entirely mistaken.

I took a look at my 6e rulebook, the wording is identical. Not sure how I got it into my head.

Is the physical door the "access point", or is the "access point" the threshold around the door? You know, the opening you actually walk through....The door is the decorative/protective covering for an access point.

IT doesnt really matter, if people are going to attempt to use the folding down door as the access point then I will put ridiculously long boarding planks on my trucks so that they add 3-5 inches to my hull. Its a trukk so i wont care if it gets blown up but then my boyz get another 3-5 inches closer to you. See the problem with this?

The access point is where the DOORWAY is not where the door swings open to.

partninja wrote:Is the physical door the "access point", or is the "access point" the threshold around the door? You know, the opening you actually walk through....The door is the decorative/protective covering for an access point.

The access point for an open-topped vehicle is all of the vehicle. If you exclude deocrative elements then you are making the access point only some of the vehicle.

Ghazkuul wrote:IT doesnt really matter, if people are going to attempt to use the folding down door as the access point then I will put ridiculously long boarding planks on my trucks so that they add 3-5 inches to my hull. Its a trukk so i wont care if it gets blown up but then my boyz get another 3-5 inches closer to you. See the problem with this?

The problem with your example of what you are going to do is that you are suggesting modelling for advantage beyond what the standard model allows within the very clear rules.

The access point is where the DOORWAY is not where the door swings open to.

Wrong. The access point for an open-topped vehicle is all of the vehicle, decorative elements etc. included (because otherwise that would not be all of the vehicle).

If you don't want to play it that way that's fine but don't expect others who wish to play by the rules to necessarily agree with you; anything else is houseruling, and not something you should try to surprise pull on an opponent mid-game.

Houseruling or not, its basically an established convention used in every tournament or club I've ever encountered or heard of.

Think of this, can I model the doors down on all of my rhinos and get another 2" disembarkation? RAW? maybe. Modeling for advantage? Yes... not illegal, but a no no

 Lobukia wrote:
Think of this, can I model the doors down on all of my rhinos and get another 2" disembarkation? RAW? maybe. Modeling for advantage? Yes... not illegal, but a no no

That depends if you count the doors as part of the hull - Rhino access points are defined as two on each side of the hull and one at the rear. Certainly in the case of the side doors though, despite the detail underneath they're designed to be glued in place unlike the rear door which opens and closes, so that could again be considered modelling for advantage beyond what the standard model allows.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue about what rules people play under at home or in tournaments. It's totally not my place to tell people how to play their games and I don't mean or want to - I'm just here for a robust and fun discussion on what the rules say

As has been pointed out, the RAW would be that the doors, as part of an Open Topped Vehicle, are access points. The requirement to place within 6" of that access point leaves an unusual flower shape around the pod, so keep that in mind.

The convention I've always seen, and used, is that the doors are purely decorative. Trying to place one with the doors down is nearly impossible, and creates SUCH a wide foot print in terms of blocking enemy movement that it's really game breaking to use them that way.

[Can't move within 1" without assaulting = roughly 1 foot diameter that enemy units can't move through. Two or three such pods could efectively corner someone on the first turn with no real recourse.]

An interesting bit of circularity has just occurred to me, assuming we count the doors as "other decorative elements":

1. For measurement purposes we are told to ignore the doors as we are counting them as "other decorative elements".
2. All of the vehicle is an Access Point for Open-Topped Transports.
3. When disembarking we must place models in contact with an Access Point, i.e. potentially in contact with the doors.
4. Disembarking models can then make a normal move, but must end their move wholly within 6" of the Access Point it disembarked from.
5. Placing disembarked models in contact with an Access Point is not measuring, so is unaffected by rules governing vehicles and measuring distances.
6. Ending their move wholly within 6" however does involve measuring to or from a vehicle, and so regardless of an "other decorative element" being used as the Access Point in this case we are still required to measure to the vehicle's hull, i.e. not to the door.

So... you can count the doors as an access point and place models in contact with them upon disembarking but before making a normal move, but must still end that normal move within 6" of the hull proper, which when counting doors as "other decorative elements" does not include said doors?

I.e. despite what I suggested earlier you may only measure the post-normal move distance from the disembarking process to the doors if they are being counted as part of the hull.

I alwayas measure from the hull or centre. As they would have to get out/disembark the drop pod to get onto the long ramps.

Just be consistent. If you treat the doors as "in play", it also means you can't position models on the doors, you must move around them (not over them), and your opponent can measure range to the doors for shooting and assault purposes.

I've always seen it played as measure from the openings, ignore the doors but as long as you're consistent it should be fine.

especially when I know a lot of first time modelers glued the doors shut LOL. But like I said earlier, if someone were to try doing that to me in a game then I would just point out that the boarding planks on my Trukks can be lowered which adds about 3 inches to the range of my trukks. I would never do this in a game though honestly. My way of playing is, if the guy is being an jerk then that will be the last time I play against him.

You could argue that the doors count as being access points.

Good luck finding opponents after that.

No one plays with doors as part of the Hull. However

I can see this coming from GW:

We made the drop pod with doors so why would it not count as part of the hull?