hyozanman- makes some excellent points. Some I agree with some less so but all valid.
Your list's alpha strike isn't strong enough to get you consistent First Blood (something you need in LVO) and it can give up first blood pretty easily. You also have points in models that you simply don't need.
"To an extent this is true. It only takes 1 dead anything for
FB and the cents should accomplish that. Alpha strike is inherently low in
GKs to begin with though and this list is no different. It comes with the territory of this build."
- How much dice do you throw at Gate to insure the first blood? First blood is easily the key factor in all 50+
LVO games I've played. The point of a null-deployment is not to serve your units piece-meal to a hungry opponent, but to deny them a chance at getting a point that only one player can get. I'm not going into detail about what makes
FB so important, everyone should know why, and unfortunately this list doesn't appear to handle that aspect of the game very well. I personally just think he should focus on an alpha or beta strike.
1. Your NSF librarian doesn't need a storm bolter, or even level three. I understand you want that coveted perfect timing on Div, but honestly gate + invis should be enough. Any more and you are risking getting powers denied/failed.
"Meant to point out
ML 2 but missed it. That said
WC is at a premium in this list so there's worse things to spend 25 pts on."
-Fine, I usually run a level 3 libby and to be honest I just nitpicked this because I wanted him to realize he had the points to put more units on the board.
2. Your terminators should be downgraded to a strike squad. Strike squads can deepstrike, cost 55 points cheaper and can have the exact same weapons as terminators. You don't need a random psycannon on the terminators, or their 2+ armor save. Remember terminators aren't competitive for a reason. No need making a terminator squad 15 points cheaper then one that packs 5 power fists. A strike squad is simply better for the extra units you can bring.
"This I have argued the same. However in practice I have found GKTs to be well worth the extra pts.
Meq is fine if thats all you have access to but they evaporate.
TDA isnt what it used to be but its durable enough to present a threat in a list that can only present 5-6 actual threats. 5 marines doesn't do that. That said depending on where those 75 pts are spent really makes or breaks the decision.. reserve manip for example is preferable to
TDA when it comes down to the two."
- In practice
TDA doesn't work in competitive games. I'm not comparing the strike squad to a
Tac squad, it's just a cheaper troop tax that can still be a threat. (5 force power weapons on
MEQs with possibly
HH and a Daemon Hammer? Come on) The psycannon that terminators bring isn't that threatening and the extra points could simply go into a scout squad or simply another unit that requires more of your opponent's attention or draws fire from his CentStar. Tell me, what in the meta can "evaporate"
MEQ that wouldn't want to be shooting at this centurions? There isn't a lot. Reserve manipulation is important for both, since both units can deep strike.
3. One flyer isn't good anti-air, especially if it's on a flyer out-classed in almost every way by a fire raptor. But I understand, you want to use the stormraven. So in that case I would suggest ripping off the hurricane bolters, or getting a new one, because you don't need them.
"Agreed one isn't, but one and a sarosh sicaran + prescienced cents is passable. The raptor is superior but I think the bigger issue is he wants to use the sicaran. A raven isn't poor by any means, just as you say outclassed. :
- Don't believe the Sicaran was Saroshed when I wrote the analysis, and yes a sicaran is pretty good at killing flyers. But realistically it is probably gonna die quickly to any list he plays. If a list isn't packing enough stuff to pop one tank by turn 2 then he is probably gonna win that match up anyways. You would be surprised at how hard it is to kill flyers with 15 grav shots. Even with all the rerolls. It should only be like 1-2 immobilized results. Before his Jink saves. My point stands, either get more anti-air or get more units then flyers would bother killing.
4. One nemesis dreadknight has never really done it for me personally. I feel like they get expensive quickly and die before they get their shunt moves. They are also susceptible to alpha strikes when you start them on the board. The best way to run them is in pairs, cheap, and deep striking with the NSF special rule. You can deepstrike them in turn one and save 30 points on the personal teleporter. So I would save yourself 30 points here. I prefer the flamer and greatsword myself, but go-ahead and keep the cannon if that's what you need for your list.
"Here I disagree completely. I see the concept of savings but the trade off isnt worth it. There currently isn't a good defense in the game against shunt. The same can't be said of
DS which has plenty of answers and inherent risks especially in a competitive environment which WILL include tau. By the same token reserve all strategy doesn't work well in this list. Too much risk unreliability and added vulnerability involved as opposed to what is essentially a guaranteed 30" no scatter
DS turn 1. Then consider 6" moving
MC's are scary to no one. I could see this working if one were to take say.. 4 NDKs and drop them all over the place though."
- I did allude to running NDKs in pairs. I stopped running them simply because I felt like they never made back their points. The way you defend against shunt is simple it's the same way you defend against deepstriking just no interceptor. Instead of nuking you on your movement phase, you are getting nuked on your opponent's shooting phase next turn, and that NDK shooting isn't enough to warrant sacrificing such an expensive unit. Tau is already a bad match up for these kind of lists in general so no use bringing them up. Ultimately I think this comes down to personal preference and lists.
OP your best bet I feel is running 2 NDKs or none, no matter how they are kitted out. I do see how the PT can give you much needed flexibility, even if it is a bit expensive.
5. Try and get rhinos or pods for your marines wherever you can. They are just too good for the points.
"Not in this list. Rhinos do nothing for offensive output and mobility isn't that great. If he wants
MSU elements and
DTs scouts in storms are superior. What do rhinos do for centstar again?
On drop pods there's more argument for the pod itself than the contents, mission dependent. The DPA ratio sucks here though so if anything I would maybe consider one. I'd like to hear what you have in mind here. These could be better than storms in the right circumstances."
- Rhinos give you mobile extra units that can score and obtain secondary objectives that the Centstar and deepstriking units can't. You don't need rhinos to have offensive output. I run just one rhino and it overachieves every single game. Think for example you have an objective in your deployment area that your opponent needs to be scored. Stick the rhino on top of it, and if they kill the rhino the marines are there to pick it up. Another example, pods don't move. Secondary objectives can get really close and sometimes it comes down to one or two points. It can really be as simple as one rhino moving back and forth between two Maelstrom objectives that are 20 inches away. A feat that Pods can't do, and things like Wave Serpents, Jet bikes, and Marine Bikes excel at (among other things). The rhino just does it for a whole lot cheaper. Every
LVO list needs mobile scoring somewhere. I have never tried scouts in
DT storms before. I was always put off by the 2 hull points and 4+ save. I may have to test them.
He would only need pods if he wanted to back up his shunting knight and gating Cents. I feel like one or three might do it, if you run one pod I might suggest sticking something cheap and threatening like a command squad with 5 melta guns in it so at least it has an extra chance of killing something you don't like.
6. One thuderfirecannon is simply not good. Smart opponents take full advantage of that 2' unit coherency, and you should scatter off at least once a game. Also what else are you starting on the board? You should reserve everything you can and null deploy. A TFC doesn't fit in your list and is an easy waste of 100 points.
"Having a cover ignoring barrage weapon is really the point I assume. What do suggest is better for the price? Again I gotta disagree on the null deploy. Too many ways to screw with it from counter reserve control, interceptor, scouting to disrupt LZs and so on. "
100 points? That plus the storm bolter off the libby is a tactical squad and a
DT. Good enough for me. You know the point of a null-deploy isn't to be idiotic and just null-deploy every single game. Sometimes you want everything on the board and sometimes your opponent has a nasty alpha strike that you want to try and handicap. The
TFc removes that versatility, and all for being able to kill maybe one unit in a game? Listen, I used to run three of these babies in an awesome 7 pod alpha strike list and I am not calling them bad. But look at the Meta for a second. Mechdar, Nid
MC spam, Mech Crons,
IG artillery, White Scars, Ad. Lance, Pods, Daemon factory, Renegade Artillery, CentStars. none of them run things that are weak to
TFCs. Would you like me to go over every single match up? I could, because I have played all these lists with
TFCs and never have I A) Found one to be sufficient, and B) Killed more than 2 units in a game even while firing all three of my thunderfire cannons.
OP listen, if you want to test this, simply play out a bunch of small scenarios of your
TFC shooting at a squad of your choice. Challenge a friend, tell them if they can take out an entire minimum squad of ANY unit in the game with the
TFC then you will buy them a drink. Now after they accept your challenge you get said unit (probably one 10 man squad with a 5-6+) and spread them out 2 inches apart from one another. Laugh as they can't cover more then one model with the template and then also laugh as they scatter (or not) and then proceed to not roll 3 Bullseyes. You probably won't need to, but roll their Leadership save anyways, just for good measure. You can cycle, rinse, repeat this with any unit(s) you want in any kind of scenario. Just remember to be smart and keep your units spread out.
Some quick counter points to potential arguments you might still have.
- An army CAN spread out easily because his list is already susceptible to other armies with Big Footprints.
- The best case scenario for that fortified piece of terrain is it forces your opponent to go after an objective they would rather shoot a unit off of then go up to and score (I'll be honest, it can be worth it sometimes)
- The "they might not have time to spread out all their units!" argument is silly because you don't want to rely on that and people do in fact both know how to play, and set up their armies.
- The "But it has BARRAGE!" argument is also silly, because against infantry barrage won't matter on such a small template (see above) and the barrage vs. vehicles isn't very good because things without jink usually have an 11+ side armor, and things with armor 10 can both jink, or force you to use the
Str 5 blast which is just as bad as you trying to pen
AV 11 with the other firing mode. Speaking of
AV 10, I forgot to add Tau castles, Venom spam, Taudar, and Eldar Buddies to the list of viable armies that
TFCs aren't good against.
I do think the storm raven is better then nothing in your list, and you do still have the points to run it if you want. You don't need the rhino on the strike squad, it isn't objective secured and they can deep strike without it. In a way they could have them act like a pseudo-pod and land on an objective somewhere out of
LoS that your opponent needs to get in close to score. I believe if you get back those extra 35 points you could maybe run a third dreadknight? without a PT. I think your best bet is trying to get at least one flyer out with those points though, or at least some
AA. I wouldn't suggest a building because although most of them are pretty durable the units inside tend to turn to mush after a few penetrating hits. You could try a pair of stalkers with extra armor from the marine codex! 4 twin-lined strength 7 shots on a cheap rhino Chassis isn't bad with the added bonus of hitting skimmers at full
BS too! You could use the remaining points to get a hammer for your libby. A legion of the damned squad with 3 melta weapons is solid too, though might be a bit too unreliable.
I think you went in the right direction with your most recent list
OP, and you have to understand. I don't think your list is bad. I just want to focus on optimizing it for you.
and adorable.