Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

HELLO ALL!

recently went to a tournament which was kick ass! loved fielding the orks, but i have changed my list slightly to one which i believe is more competitive. please let me know what you think! what is it weak to? what do you think its strengths are and what would you change?

1499 points:


HQ (120pts)
- Big Mek [Da Finkin' kap, Warbike, Kustom Force Field]

Elites (560pts)
- 3X Meganobz [3X Kombi- Skorcha, Bosspole, Trukk, Ram, Rokkit Launcha]
- 3X Meganobz [3X Kombi- Skorcha, Bosspole, Trukk, Ram, Rokkit Launcha]
- 15X Tankbustas [Boss Nob, Bosspole]

Troops (350pts)
- 10X Boyz [Boss Nob, Bosspole, Power Klaw, Trukk, Ram, Rokkit Launcha]
- 10X Boyz [Boss Nob, Bosspole, Power Klaw, Trukk, Ram, Rokkit Launcha]
- 10X Gretchin [Squig Hound]
- 10X Gretchin [Squig Hound]

Fast Attack (344pts)
- 3X Warbikers [Warbiker Nob, Bosspole, Power Klaw]
- 5X Warbuggies [5X Twin-linked Rockit Launcha]
- 5X Warbuggies [5X Twin-linked Rockit Launcha]

Heavy Support (125pts)
- Battlewagon [Ram, 2x Rokkit Launcha]

Plan:
the tank bustas go into the battlewagon. i have 4 trucks and the wagon. The mek will go with the other bikes behind all the vehicles while they move forward providing a 5+ inv to all the vehicles within 6 inches. hopefully my 2X 5 warbuggies will arrive turn 2 which means i can pop transports with the help of the tank bustas in order for my trucks to dump off their green cargo into the enemy and rip em up. the grots will run around after objectives while the rest of the army assaults my opponent.

Do Warbuggies have outflank? You might get more mileage out of deffkoptas, IMO, I find they're a bit more versatile and durable than buggies, same points too.

 Jambles wrote:
Do Warbuggies have outflank? You might get more mileage out of deffkoptas, IMO, I find they're a bit more versatile and durable than buggies, same points too.

yes, they have outflank and actually, statistically because they are vehicles, against st 4 weapons every 12 hits will kill one and every 12 hits will kill a deff kpota assuming it jinked, if not it is every 6 hits.

no, warbuggies are 10 points cheaper actually.

thanks for the comment

For some reason I was assuming you'd bring trakks for the pseudo-reinforced ram (just because that's how I always run them, lol!), that's my bad. You're clearly running em cheaper to max out the rokkits on the field, which is definitely not a bad idea.

Personally I'd still opt for koptas, though... that jink save is a lifesaver when the autocannons come calling! That and getting a charge after your rokkit barrage... can't tell you how many times my koptas have saved another unit in CC with a timely charge in the rear or just managed to scrape off the last few hullpoints from their target.

I assume grots are to hold the backboard?

A major difference between the koptas and the buggies are:
Koptas can scout, outflank, and deepstrike.
Koptas are reasonably immune to OHKOs, whereas buggies are definitely not.

I dont think I will ever field Mega nobz, to expensive, and not enough bang for the buck. A couple of AP2 weapons and no more Nobz. I prefer grabbing a group of nobz and putting in 2 or more PK's. Cheaper and more wounds so you dont run away as often. Plus to make life nicer you can take hte point savings and get MORE BOYZ!!!

BossMakk wrote:
Koptas are reasonably immune to OHKOs, whereas buggies are definitely not.

Immune to what?

Buggies are less vulnerable to Blasts, having a 4" coherency instead of the Koptas 2", and are completely immune to Str3 attacks, I've had many a Kopta fall to a hail of lasguns.

Ghazkull...a Nob with a power klaw is more expensive than a mega nob... You'd pay 43 points for an armor 6+ nob over 40, for an armor 2+ meganob... The only way you would still run nobs is to paint less models. I personally wouldn't run them as a unit again unless they gained another wound and 3 more attacks at their price and fragility.

If you're worried about their speed, take several small units of them in vehicles to speed across the board, preferably in battle wagons. And confuse target priority when possible.

Ps if you mean physical monetary cost, I feel your pain. But collect them over time. They're worth it.

Ghazkuul wrote:
I dont think I will ever field Mega nobz, to expensive, and not enough bang for the buck. A couple of AP2 weapons and no more Nobz. I prefer grabbing a group of nobz and putting in 2 or more PK's. Cheaper and more wounds so you dont run away as often. Plus to make life nicer you can take hte point savings and get MORE BOYZ!!!

I'm sorry, but your simply wrong. A nob with power klaw is more expensive than a meganobs and you don't get the 2+ save! My meganobs almost always take their points back and sometimes more! In a tournament I just went to, in their first game they flamed and charged 5 wraith guard and 2 warlocks and killed them, then charged and killed a wraith lord and a wave serpent all on their own! That's incredible. Especially with the option to take kombi flames, the meganobs can take on anything from 20 nidz to a wraith knight. Also, the meganobs will have a 5+ inv from the kustom once field I am using, so they won't go down to AP2 as easily as you may think

No way I'd throw Meganobz at a Wraithknight or Wraithlord (I'd be cautious of Wraithguard Overwatch as well!).
Instant Death with no save (KFF doesn't work in combat).

But apart from that, yes Meganobz are a tough unit. I'd definitely consider them over regular Nobz. They really do epitomise the Ork Bully tactic: throw them at anything soft!

the only problem i have with my list is the slight lack of numbers of boyz :/

Looks a bit like my list. with a few things changed around but ultimately quite alike. Your warband has more rokkits.

How did the MANZ in trukks fare? I give mine BW because they are the stars of the list and I dont want their ride to blow up too soon.

your right in that Meganobz get access to a PK for cheaper then a regular nob. However in a unit of 3 Meganobz if 1 dies they need a leadership test and with Leadership 7 they will probably fail, and the only way to pass the mob rule is with a 2 or 3 so you have a 1 in 3 chance of passing the mob rule test. Its cheaper in the long run for me to run a 10 man nob squad with eavy armor and 1-2 PK's and then attach my warboss to it for some added boom.

10 nobz, 2 PKs, Eavy Armor = 270pts
7 Meganobz, 7 PKs, Mega Armor = 280.

yeah Meganobz will survive with their 2+ and have more S8 Ap2 attacks but have 6 fewer wounds, have 9 fewer attacks, and they all swing at Init 1 where as the nobz swing at init 3 and Init 1. For the most part I use nobz as a wound pool for my warboss.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
your right in that Meganobz get access to a PK for cheaper then a regular nob. However in a unit of 3 Meganobz if 1 dies they need a leadership test and with Leadership 7 they will probably fail, and the only way to pass the mob rule is with a 2 or 3 so you have a 1 in 3 chance of passing the mob rule test. Its cheaper in the long run for me to run a 10 man nob squad with eavy armor and 1-2 PK's and then attach my warboss to it for some added boom.

10 nobz, 2 PKs, Eavy Armor = 270pts
7 Meganobz, 7 PKs, Mega Armor = 280.

yeah Meganobz will survive with their 2+ and have more S8 Ap2 attacks but have 6 fewer wounds, have 9 fewer attacks, and they all swing at Init 1 where as the nobz swing at init 3 and Init 1. For the most part I use nobz as a wound pool for my warboss.

Sorry, but if your going to compare points, you have to compare it to a 175 point manz missile and tell me how the nob unit at that point value, since that is what I am using, is more effective. The unit has 3 kombi-skorchas, Bosspole and a truck with ram. I admit that there are some circumstances were you may prefer nobz over manz, but I haven't experienced that situation yet, and I don't think I will any time soon. I have over 30 nobz sitting round not doing anything, trust me, I wish I could see them used effectively, but I can't see it happening over my faithful manz. Just try the manz missile for me with a couple of proxys, because it's all well and good theory hammering this, but trust me, manz rule

3 mega nobs w/grotsnik, in battle wagons. With kill saws. It's pure murder. And I'd put my 4, 6-8 attacks on the charge manz/doc against your 10 nobz any time brother. Your 2 claws I'll take on doc who you don't double out, take my fnp's and wipe your squad. Form a second unit with a warboss w/the lucky stick for 5attacks at weapon skill 5. Also brutal. Not as fun against your group, but I'd put that 2+ reroll against all those choppas any day.

3 Mega nobz with kill Klaws and Grotsnik = 310pts

8 Nobz 2 PK's and a warboss with Lucky stick, PK. = 304

Disregarding charge because it would be a huge boost to either side that got it. you are swinging at Init 1 with everyone. I have 6 nobz with 24 attacks (18 base + 6 CC weapons) I am hitting on 3's so 18 hits, wounding on 4s so 9 wounds. you will fail 1.5 wounds so if im lucky you lose 1 of your nobz, yeah you get fnp but thats a 1/3rd chance. regardless your lads swing with 12 attacks hitting on 4s and grotsnik swings with 4 attacks hitting on 4s so 16 attacks of which 8 will hit statistically, from their its most likely 7 will kill, unless i take a few on my warboss so lets say I took 2 on my warboss and lost 5 nobz, My nobz and warboss swing at init 1 with 6 Attacks hitting on 3s and my warboss has 4 attacks rerolling on 3s. 4 hits from nobz and probably all 4 hits from warboss again probably 7 wounds from this. You can't take them all on grotsnik you have to assign them to the model closest so realistically I just wiped out your unit.

My point has and will always be that Meganobz are to expensive and have giant targets drawn on their heads the second they take the field.

And finally let me finish this with saying THIS IS MY OPINION! not fact! lol you guys get upset that I don't like meganobz and im sorry, its just my personal feelings towards the subject. One day I might field some meganobz for my warboss or as a missile but only hit a wicked high points game.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
3 Mega nobz with kill Klaws and Grotsnik = 310pts

8 Nobz 2 PK's and a warboss with Lucky stick, PK. = 304

Disregarding charge because it would be a huge boost to either side that got it. you are swinging at Init 1 with everyone. I have 6 nobz with 24 attacks (18 base + 6 CC weapons) I am hitting on 3's so 18 hits, wounding on 4s so 9 wounds. you will fail 1.5 wounds so if im lucky you lose 1 of your nobz, yeah you get fnp but thats a 1/3rd chance. regardless your lads swing with 12 attacks hitting on 4s and grotsnik swings with 4 attacks hitting on 4s so 16 attacks of which 8 will hit statistically, from their its most likely 7 will kill, unless i take a few on my warboss so lets say I took 2 on my warboss and lost 5 nobz, My nobz and warboss swing at init 1 with 6 Attacks hitting on 3s and my warboss has 4 attacks rerolling on 3s. 4 hits from nobz and probably all 4 hits from warboss again probably 7 wounds from this. You can't take them all on grotsnik you have to assign them to the model closest so realistically I just wiped out your unit.

My point has and will always be that Meganobz are to expensive and have giant targets drawn on their heads the second they take the field.

And finally let me finish this with saying THIS IS MY OPINION! not fact! lol you guys get upset that I don't like meganobz and im sorry, its just my personal feelings towards the subject. One day I might field some meganobz for my warboss or as a missile but only hit a wicked high points game.

Ok, so perhaps in this one instance but that's still not the 140 point unit that I am proposing. You cant beat mans at such low point squads, which, if anything, will draw less eyes that that massive blob you are talking about. It also means the enemy has to deal with target priority and can't wipe the squad with a single shooting attack, because there would be multiple mans squads your very welcome not to use meganobz, but I just think your missing out :/

Don't forget in that example the Meganobz get +D3 attacks from Mad Doc and are fearless.

These are units that shouldn't be in CC with each other anyway, its a mutually assured destruction scenario! A better comparison would be how they both match up against things like assault marines, bikers, tac squads etc.

xlDuke wrote:
Don't forget in that example the Meganobz get +D3 attacks from Mad Doc and are fearless.

These are units that shouldn't be in CC with each other anyway, its a mutually assured destruction scenario! A better comparison would be how they both match up against things like assault marines, bikers, tac squads etc.

Indeed it is. But please use my 140 point example against a 140 point example of your own ghazkuul. Because saying oh, my 400 point nob squad and warboss can wipe a squad out same as if you had a 400 point meganobs squad. Well that's true because both units at that points cost they will both wipe anything out!

But if you look at a 140 point meganobz squad vs a 140 point nob squad, I can confidently say that the manz will do better against most opponents. Especially when you have several of these squads going around the board. A normal nob squad can only be effective in large numbers, but the manz cope fine in small numbers.

Heres the thing, I wouldn't let you get close enough to me with your 140pts of Mega nobz to let you use your skorchas let alone your PKs I would blow up your trukk and then pick your nobs off from a distance simple as that.

sounds like a challenge to da boss!

and as you focus all of your weapons on my 2+ armor, the rest of my army will be up the field and 140 points worth of dudes will have distracted your entire army for a couple of turns

shame your in U.S.A, would have liked a game


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaargh wrote:
Looks a bit like my list. with a few things changed around but ultimately quite alike. Your warband has more rokkits.

How did the MANZ in trukks fare? I give mine BW because they are the stars of the list and I dont want their ride to blow up too soon.

the manz in truck went alright, in the torny i used them at, their truck survived game 1, died late game turn 2 and died turn 2 game 3 (but i didnt really need it much game 3 as i was against kan spam)

I wouldnt have to waste much effort on them Titan, Turn 1 I pop your truck, with either big shootas or maybe I devote some Lootas I dont know, turns 2-3 i don't have to worry about them because they are to far away. Turn 4 I run in with some boyz maybe and boom your dead :-P 3 Manz vs 30 boyz, boyz win every time :-D

The two units you guys are talking about have such different roles, and different play styles. One is for a MSU list and the other is not. When I send a Manz missile across the board the point of it is to draw fire away from all of my other MSU. It takes a lot to kill it, and if they do they would have had to focus fire it. Leaving everything else the opportunity to do its job. I don’t think I would take the bosspole with them though. I don’t know if it would make a difference with only three of them. I also don’t think I would focus fire the MAZ with that Battle wagon full of rockets coming at me. That is a lot of points in that one unit and if it goes down on the wrong side of the field you could be in trouble. I have had problems with taking battlewagons and trukks together. I feel that you have to commit to a trukk spam or do a blitz brigade. Otherwise you get too spread out. And having the scout move with the blitz brigade is the best way to get the tanksbustas to the choice targets in a slow moving Battlewaggon.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I wouldnt have to waste much effort on them Titan, Turn 1 I pop your truck, with either big shootas or maybe I devote some Lootas I dont know, turns 2-3 i don't have to worry about them because they are to far away. Turn 4 I run in with some boyz maybe and boom your dead :-P 3 Manz vs 30 boyz, boyz win every time :-D

i think maybe your assuming too much

we both know how amazing reliable ork shooting is haha and besides, i have 2 trucks with 2 squads of 3 manz and both have 5+ inv form the KFF, so will be harder to pop than you think perhaps. also, they all have skorchas so, providing your dakka misses more than it hits, i would hope that my flamer templates manage to get the drop on you as it were


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Goodfellow wrote:
The two units you guys are talking about have such different roles, and different play styles. One is for a MSU list and the other is not. When I send a Manz missile across the board the point of it is to draw fire away from all of my other MSU. It takes a lot to kill it, and if they do they would have had to focus fire it. Leaving everything else the opportunity to do its job. I don’t think I would take the bosspole with them though. I don’t know if it would make a difference with only three of them. I also don’t think I would focus fire the MAZ with that Battle wagon full of rockets coming at me. That is a lot of points in that one unit and if it goes down on the wrong side of the field you could be in trouble. I have had problems with taking battlewagons and trukks together. I feel that you have to commit to a trukk spam or do a blitz brigade. Otherwise you get too spread out. And having the scout move with the blitz brigade is the best way to get the tanksbustas to the choice targets in a slow moving Battlewaggon.

thanks for commenting

yes, i agree that they have different roles. its a fair point .... i have the battlewagon with the tank bustas in because i have 15 of them, and it provides a big metal box to provide protection for them for as long as possible, whereas having more and more trucks would make me popping their vehicles less reliable. besides, i only have 4 trucks

Fifteen of them targeting something would be pretty much an auto kill. That would be brutal. I love my tankbustas. They are always worth taking. Have you thought about putting a painboy with them? It would make them even more survivable.

Goodfellow wrote:
Fifteen of them targeting something would be pretty much an auto kill. That would be brutal. I love my tankbustas. They are always worth taking. Have you thought about putting a painboy with them? It would make them even more survivable.

i havent dont that no, havent found the points. and in only 1 of my 3 games with a similar list did the battlewagon actually die, so the painboy would be used elsewhere if i needed him, but no, i havent put one in the tankbustas before.

with 4 troop choices I would consider a second detachment and then duplicating your favorite half of your list. This is the general idea of all of the following feedback

Turn one will be tough. Something is going to walk. Which might make it your backfield scoring unit Based on what your opponent shoots. So no grots.

Your meganobz are big and juicy, so it might be them. If you aren't willing to cut something to make four squads of meganobz in two CADS then maybe cut the meganobz for more buggies or bikes.

I think three bikes with your KFF mek is first blood and slay the warlord turn one. Any competitive opponent will put his eye next to table and say he can see bike tires to shoot under the trucks and remove your bike unit and then maim a truck or two after KFF is gone. Make the unit big enough to be shot and survive. I think CAD2 needs painboy on bike joined to the bikes.

I think the battle wagon needs to become two truck units of 5 tank bustas or meganobz. Or cut all truck units for half as many BW units.

It's a good list right now, I think if you want better you need a bigger bike unit with the painboy and then twice as many meganob/TB or Warbuggy squads, whatever you like better.

 Rismonite wrote:
with 4 troop choices I would consider a second detachment and then duplicating your favorite half of your list. This is the general idea of all of the following feedback

Turn one will be tough. Something is going to walk. Which might make it your backfield scoring unit Based on what your opponent shoots. So no grots.

Your meganobz are big and juicy, so it might be them. If you aren't willing to cut something to make four squads of meganobz in two CADS then maybe cut the meganobz for more buggies or bikes.

I think three bikes with your KFF mek is first blood and slay the warlord turn one. Any competitive opponent will put his eye next to table and say he can see bike tires to shoot under the trucks and remove your bike unit and then maim a truck or two after KFF is gone. Make the unit big enough to be shot and survive. I think CAD2 needs painboy on bike joined to the bikes.

I think the battle wagon needs to become two truck units of 5 tank bustas or meganobz. Or cut all truck units for half as many BW units.

It's a good list right now, I think if you want better you need a bigger bike unit with the painboy and then twice as many meganob/TB or Warbuggy squads, whatever you like better.

perhaps i should get rid of a unit of grots and add a couple more warbikes?

i only have 6 meganobz and i dont want to get more at the moment, especially because of the theme of my army, i have kept 2 units of boyz in trucks for a reason, and that is because the models i have made are sweet

well i could keep 1 cad and try and scrape together some points for a painboy on bike?

..... mmmmmm ..... im afraid the wagon stays, too much fluff is going on with my models ..... plus, the battlewagons durability is what means the tank bustas can keep popping things every turn.

well i DO have 2 full squads of warbuggies thats pretty good going but yeah, i would take more meganobz if i had the models.

Wow, there is way too much school yard "My dad is better than your dad" going on.

MANZ are decent units. No one will argue that. The reason I never bothered to invest in them is because the current state of the game does not allow for them to thrive. Though, local metas vary. I know in my area, I face Tau, Marines and their ilk, and Necrons most often. I don't bother with MANZ because the volume of fire will drown out their 2+ armor AND bust open their transport before they even get close enough to be a threat.

MANZ suffer than same issue as Terminators, but suffer from less options. They can't deep strike, they can't run, they have poor shooting, they don't have a base invul of any kind and are weak to volume of fire and the abundance of Ap2.

They aren't BAD, but they do get targets on their head. Well, correction. Their transport gets a target, and once that pops...well, they can be effectively ignored and kited for the rest of the game.

I rarely use Mega Bosses for this very reason. Their so damn slow if their transport gets blown up. I only run Mega Boss in a Battlewagon. ONLY in a Battle Wagon. It's the only thing durable enough to get him where he needs to be, while still letting him assault proper.

As for the Buggy vs Kopter debate:

Yes, Buggies are immune to small arms fire. Which is not really used these days. So that argument is really poor. Who really brings and relies on S4 weaponry? People load up on any anti tank they can, because it's too cheap and too reliable. You're armor 10's will die. They will glance to death or just explode, just like all our weak vehicles.

Kopters have survivability. 2 Wounds that only get ignored on S10 or ID. Can Jink, still fire reliably due to twin linked, can be joined by a Warboss on Bike for a rather nasty surprise hack n' slash unit when they outflank. They may need leadership tests, but I'd ratehr do that than just explode. They also can do bombing runs, which is awesome, even if a bit weak. But large plates are nice.

I'll always field Kopters over Buggies.

Anyway, back on the topic:

The list looks fast and krumpy. You've got decent threats on board, which means it will be tough for your opponent to choose what to kill. The MANZ missiles will either take the first few vollies of fire, or if they don't for some reason, then they will get close enough to be a spooky scary threat.

I'm a tad nervous on the low body count though. If the Boyz Trukk pops, they are in for some serious trouble. And as much as I tend to advocate rokkits, I tend to put Big Shootas on my trukks for extra shots with better chances to hit. Just my personal flavor.

I'd urge you to add more bikes, perhaps lose one buggy per squad? add a couple bikes to give the squad some more meat. Otherwise, as Rismonite said, even with a KFF, they will be pretty easy to pick off. I also think the KFF might be a bit of a waste on them too. As it is, they have a 4+ armor save to safe them from small arms fire, or a Jink save that can be +1 if they Turbo Boost (Which they will) against anything that ignores their armor. A KFF on them would only be ideal if you KNOW for certain there is going to be a lot of ignores cover.

ironic you said that last comment "is going to be a lot of ignores cover" anytime I show up to the shop every player their starts finding their flamer templates and finding out where they left all their flamer models :-p. I think they believe I will always run big units of boyz lol