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After weeks of careful consideration and discussion with many posters and with my own mates, I've come up with the following. It is taking into account the most powerful builds including Knights, serp/wraithknight spam, pentflyrant etc.

2 CAD

1st CAD
Command squad
Arch demagogue with cov of tzeentch and mutant overlord (in bunker #1)
4 disciples with ML with flakk

10 mutants

10 mutants

3 spawn

3 spawn

3 spawn

3 spawn

5 Disciples
ML with flakk

5 Disciples
ML with flakk

3 laser destroyer rapiers
Militia training

3 laser destroyer rapiers
Militia training

Support squad (in bunker #1)
6 teams each with lascannons, militia training

Giant spawn

Giant spawn

Giant spawn

Bunker with ammo dump and quadgun (manned by arch demagogue)

CAD 2
Command squad
Arch demagogue with cov of tzeentch (in bunker #2)
4 disciples with ML with flakk

10 mutants

10 mutants

3 Earthshakers

4 Heavy Quad Launchers

Support squad (in bunker #2)
6 teams each with lascannons, militia training

Bunker with ammo dump and quad gun (manned by arch demagogue)

1850pts.

AA is insane with the support squads getting bs2 (rerolling 1's) snap shots and a very likely bs5 (otherwise bs4) quad gun on each bunker, in addition to a bs4 flakk missile from 4 seperate units. If these bunkers shoot at ground targets the support squads are bs3 (rerolling 1's) and the quad guns are tl bs2. Against serps its the best of both worlds.
AT/anti-MC involves the bunkers as mentioned, 6 rapiers which are bs3 tl st9 ap1 ordnance (for 2 rolls pucking the highest to pen), the 3 earthshaker shots which are also ordnance and always hit side armour (and with barrage will often be ignoring cover) and 4 bs4 krak missiles.
Anti-troop involves the earthshakers and the 16 barrage blasts of the st5 quad launchers (as well as the later discussed troops and MCs).
All of this firepower is on t7 3+ multiple wound platforms or in av14 bunkers.

This is not mentioning the 12 objective secured spawn, 3 T6 4W 4+ MCs which seem devastating (on paper) in combat and 40 cheap riff-raff mutants who will most likely be advancing on the opponents lines. The 4 disciple squads meanwhile can camp on home objectives, pretty safe in the fact that the opponent will be shooting at anything but them.

Flyrants, serps and knights should all die quickly to this list or be forced to jink so much that their firepower becomes neutered, and any deathstars that can survive that firepower can be tied up with cheap fearless spawn and giant spawn, as should any surviving FMCs that are shot out of the sky.

Thanks to all who helped along the way in building this list. Special mention should go to captyn_bob.

Now to expand upon the spawn and cultists (mutants/artillery crew) I already have...

I estimate a year or so until completion, then maybe my first major non-gaming group tournament!

Looks like you're there!

Im not totally sold on the disciples with flakk. But I guess a bit more anti air is called for.

More playtesting will be needed for further refinement.

Is each demagogue joining the support squads to grant them BS2 snap shots? Why not grant the support squads covenant of tzeentch so they do not require the demagogue to join them?

Yes they are. Just to save points really - as the demagogues are manning the quads which are on the bunkers they'll be with the support squads anyway.

For the flakk my logic goes as follows... say I come up against pentflyrant or flying bakery or serp spam (I know these don't need flakk but same logic applies)... so both bunkers fire at 1 flyrant/nightscythe/serpent each, the opponent will be silly not to jink against this. So that means 2 already jinked. Now squad 1(with flakk) fires a missile at a f/n/s, does the opponent jink? If so then squad 2 fires at the next f/n/s, if no then squad 2 fires at the same 1, being more likely to cause damage. If the opponent doesn't jink again then squad 3 fires at this 1, if the opponent does jink then squad 3 moves onto the next f/n/s and it means squad 1 got a free shot against a non jinking target. The opponent may be savvy and not jink against squad 4 as they know that no more will be coming their way, but that will mean 5 f/n/s will have jinked OR I get more than 1 shot against non jinking targets (56% chance to wound a flyrant/damage a nightscythe, 33% chance to damage a serp).

Yeah I like it... good way to squeeze as much into the list as possible. You've spoken alot about lists/strategy/tactics etc... I cant wait until it starts coming together though... How are you going to theme the army? Looks wise etc? Are you interested in adding any fluff to them or playing purely from a competition stand point. Which world are they from? Do they all really worship Tzeentch? It's a mono-God list also which I think is even more credible and cool factor.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-EU/Vilitch-the-Curseling

Mutant overlord of tzeentch?

Excellent call! You know your models!

The original idea was to collect an allied force for my CSM to make them more competitive, however, with my sicaran (grey atm but will be painted red so either my BA or CSM can use it), future conversion of my DC dreads to bloodslaughterers and my recent acquisition of a greater brass scorpion, I'm quite happy in theory with my CSM.
So I continued analysing the renegade list and trying to see how competitive it could really be solo. I was very pleasently surprised, especially since I'd just recieved 12 spawn off ebay to start collecting an allied force. I decided to go solo renegades at that point. They can always be allied in for less competitive games/to change the flavour now and again.
So originally - yes it was for competitive purposes. However I am now looking at the fluff for them. In the past few hours, after the OP over in the other thread mentioned mutants with lasguns, I looked at IG infantry on ebay (I only have 20 cultists) - there are tons of brightly painted blue guardsmen which would fit the tzeentch theme perfectly (plus cheaper than cultists).
I will keep my rapiers nuteral when I get them so they can be used by my CSM and BA as well. But everything else can have blue/purple/black colour scheme, with the obvious mutant green thrown in.
The giant spawn I am going to use maggoth lords for (captyn_bobs suggestion), the earthshakers and heavy quad launchers can be from a different company, the mutants, disciples and support teams can be an ebay/maybe gw job, leaving only the rapiers to order from FW.
As to what world they are from/background they have, I am a Guants Ghosts fan, so I may re-read the novels over the next few months and see if I can spot any obvious tzeentchian/mutant cults/sects that take my fancy. Unless you know of some good ones fron other novels? If I can't find any, I could make my own or draw ideas from other cults/sects. It could be that the arch demagogue contaminated the water supply with some tzeentchian sorcery thus turning all into mutants... the only way they could stop the ravaging pain was to give their full worship to tzeentch? Just off the top of my head.


What's beautiful for me is that the dropping of the new BA and Cron dexes makes it look like these 2 armies of mine need no further reinforcement (don't have the cron dex yet but its getting amazing reviews). Whilst for my CSM all I really want is 1 more hellbrute to run a deepstriking mayhem pack and then im sorted. I may be tempted at one point to get a typhon, because when I've proxied Landraiders for them they just wipe the floor. But apart from that I can put my focus and allocated disposable income into this list.

Your list looks like an Anti-Flyrant list to me. It's probably also quite good against Imperial Knights. Unfortunately, I don't think it can be more than a spoiler list.

You spend a ton of points on AA that wil be wasted in quite a few games. I mean, four 70-point units that deliver 1 shot S7 AP4/turn when you already have excellent AA without them doesn't make much sense.

There is a lot of shooting in your list. Unfortunately. 2/3 of your army have to stand still to contribute anything. Any LOS blockers on the table could become a huge problem.

All you have to realistically claim objectives outside of your deployment zone are the Spawn. Sure, they are good at that, but any enemy who understands your list will focus on taking out your mobility (and WILL be able to) while weathering your shooting. Once the Spawn are gone, you have zero chance of winning Maelstrome missions, regardless of how badly you shoot the enemy off the table.

I'm having trouble suggesting any improvmenets while sticking with the theme of your list. Certainly, the disciples can go. That leaves a few points to add mobility, which could be bigger mutants squads, or even an Arvus Lighter to shuttle one unit of mutants onto an objective when needed.

There is also the giant spawn and mutants (whi may be fleet) to footslog to the opponents side. The fact is that if the opponent focuses on the spawn, they are not even trying to whittle down the huge amount of firepower which would be incredibly dangerous to just about anyone.
The 60pt disciple squads (the other squads are even cheaper realistically due to the fact that you get an arch-demagogue with them) will also be able to target krak missiles at ground targets, so not completely wasted. Now it is feisable to switch them out for 3 heavy flamer sentinals each (I had admittedly forgotten that flakk is ap4 not 3). It is the 2 elite disciple squads I'm least convinced on tbf.
Also since fortifications are placed last, I can easily take LoS blocking terrain into accout when placing the bunkers, whilst the earthshakers and quad mortars don't really care about it.
With maelstrom the opponent is going to need to get to my side objectives too which is not going to be easy for them.

Now what I could do if I need more mobility, is drop the 2 disciple squads, drop the MLs in the command squads, drop a mutant squad from the second CAD and drop a quad mortar. This will give me 230pts.
With this 230pts I could grab 3 renegade squads of 10men with 2 flamers each, and 2 chimeras with HFs.
All I'll really lose there is 4 krak/flakk missiles, 4 st5 blasts and a mutant squad and instead gain 3 infantry squads with flamers and 2 chimera flame transports. This will more than adequately make up for the loss of 1 quad launcher in the anti infantry department and give me more OS mobility. Is this a better solution?
I have gone off the idea of flakk now you have reminded me it is ap4.

I like this list and honestly hope you do well with it. It'd be nice for something other imperial knights, eldar, and tau win for a change...

Thank you. It'll be a while before I have it all yet. May make the changes above based on Aleinikov's observations (I forgot to say thank you Aleinikov). But will mostly be the same.

Poly Ranger wrote:
There is also the giant spawn and mutants (whi may be fleet) to footslog to the opponents side. The fact is that if the opponent focuses on the spawn, they are not even trying to whittle down the huge amount of firepower which would be incredibly dangerous to just about anyone.
The 60pt disciple squads (the other squads are even cheaper realistically due to the fact that you get an arch-demagogue with them) will also be able to target krak missiles at ground targets, so not completely wasted. Now it is feisable to switch them out for 3 heavy flamer sentinals each (I had admittedly forgotten that flakk is ap4 not 3). It is the 2 elite disciple squads I'm least convinced on tbf.
Also since fortifications are placed last, I can easily take LoS blocking terrain into accout when placing the bunkers, whilst the earthshakers and quad mortars don't really care about it.
With maelstrom the opponent is going to need to get to my side objectives too which is not going to be easy for them.

Now what I could do if I need more mobility, is drop the 2 disciple squads, drop the MLs in the command squads, drop a mutant squad from the second CAD and drop a quad mortar. This will give me 230pts.
With this 230pts I could grab 3 renegade squads of 10men with 2 flamers each, and 2 chimeras with HFs.
All I'll really lose there is 4 krak/flakk missiles, 4 st5 blasts and a mutant squad and instead gain 3 infantry squads with flamers and 2 chimera flame transports. This will more than adequately make up for the loss of 1 quad launcher in the anti infantry department and give me more OS mobility. Is this a better solution?
I have gone off the idea of flakk now you have reminded me it is ap4.

This sounds a lot more solid all around. The Chimeras provide some additional mobility that your opponent rather not want to shoot.

The trouble with the mutant squads is morale. There is a good chance the enemy only needs to kill three to never have to worry about the unit again. And even if morale holds, there is always the spare SMS or small unit that can just kill off the mutants whenever needed.
I cannot remember right now whether you need the Mutant Overlord to play the Giant Spawn. If not, you could lose one unit of Spawn, but instead of Mutants run Infantry Squads With a Sigil, they can be a real pest to get rid of. I just love the 20 men squad Command Squad with Demagogue, Krak'nades, and a Sigil, and a couple of 10 men barebones with Sigil are great objective squatters.

You can probably place your bunkers with good line of sight, sure. Still, mobiile enemies can counterdeploy/move to get the LOS blocker between themselves and your bunker/s when it matters. There is some value in dominating the enemies move, but sometimes terrain might just give you an auto-loss.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Thank you. It'll be a while before I have it all yet. May make the changes above based on Aleinikov's observations (I forgot to say thank you Aleinikov). But will mostly be the same.

Thanks for the discussion. I'm building my own CSM/R&H list and you provided some ideas that I had not come up with myself.