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Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer




So, this has been bugging me for awhile now and I only just thought to ask.


In my area theirs few storm ravens being fielded(mostly cause we're all xeno players) and whenever their is one it always comes up that the top turret gun,assault cannon for example will target something very close to the nose of the ship. If not under it, in my opinion, that top weapon would be restricted to shooting flyers, and models that aren't really close underneath the the Raven. Just what the gun would physically see.


Example: I have a Venom in the middle of the table, a storm raven flies on in such a way that the nose of the flyer is very close to the Venom, if not slightly over it. The Raven will then target everything around the Venom with it's guns. Then POTMS the assault cannon target the Venom, something that would be restricted by the models true line of sight being that the gun cannot physically even point at the Venom thanks to nose of the Raven.

Is this something that is regularily allowed? Or am I right in understanding that because of true line of sight they aren't allowed to do that? For the record I always allow people to do it regardless that it bothers me, I don't want to be that guy about it. But if I'm right in my understanding I'll likely point it out.

10k+ Tau, Ke'lshan
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Technically the top gun is a pintle mounted weapon. IE it has 360 degree vision. So yes even though it has no way of aiming down, it can still shoot below it. Ravens aren't the best modeled for this purpose. Look at the Helldrake back when it had 360 vision, just imagine the raven flew upside down to shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also remember any model in the same unit won't block LOS so thus it can shoot through itself without stopping itself from shooting straight down

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/07 05:07:27


 
   
Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer




I suppose if I can imagine the the Helldrake rubber necking his head around and toastig the guys behind him, than I can imagine the Storm Raven doing a barrel roll to shoot the stuff below. I never thought of it like that.

10k+ Tau, Ke'lshan
10k Dark Eldar Kabal of the Flayed skull
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Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

icefire78 wrote:
Technically the top gun is a pintle mounted weapon. IE it has 360 degree vision. So yes even though it has no way of aiming down, it can still shoot below it.

This is not actually correct.

The top gun is not a pintle mount, and even if it was that wouldn't give it an automatic 360 degree arc.

Weapons other than hull -mounts and walker weapons have a horizontal arc that equals what the weapon actually turns through.

The bigger issue here though is that regardless of how they are mounted, weapons only have a45 degree vertical arc.

So no, the storm raven can not shoot targets under its own nose with the roof turret.


This is all covered quite clearly in the Vehicle shooting rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/07 06:35:12


 
   
Made in se
Snord





Stockholm

NauticalKendall wrote:So, this has been bugging me for awhile now and I only just thought to ask.


In my area theirs few storm ravens being fielded(mostly cause we're all xeno players) and whenever their is one it always comes up that the top turret gun,assault cannon for example will target something very close to the nose of the ship. If not under it, in my opinion, that top weapon would be restricted to shooting flyers, and models that aren't really close underneath the the Raven. Just what the gun would physically see.


Example: I have a Venom in the middle of the table, a storm raven flies on in such a way that the nose of the flyer is very close to the Venom, if not slightly over it. The Raven will then target everything around the Venom with it's guns. Then POTMS the assault cannon target the Venom, something that would be restricted by the models true line of sight being that the gun cannot physically even point at the Venom thanks to nose of the Raven.

Is this something that is regularily allowed? Or am I right in understanding that because of true line of sight they aren't allowed to do that? For the record I always allow people to do it regardless that it bothers me, I don't want to be that guy about it. But if I'm right in my understanding I'll likely point it out.


TLOS still applies. Turret on the stormraven has a limited elevation.

icefire78 wrote:Technically the top gun is a pintle mounted weapon. IE it has 360 degree vision. So yes even though it has no way of aiming down, it can still shoot below it. Ravens aren't the best modeled for this purpose. Look at the Helldrake back when it had 360 vision, just imagine the raven flew upside down to shoot.


Also remember any model in the same unit won't block LOS so thus it can shoot through itself without stopping itself from shooting straight down


It looks like a turret to me? Either way TLOS still applies, it has 360 agree of traverse, but is still subject to the elevation that the actual model is capable of.
And shooting through your own squad members have no bearing on the vehicles own weapons and los. So no it cant shoot stuff below.

*Kitty'ninjaed by insaniak

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/07 06:49:40


 
   
Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer




Well that's comforting to know! It really bothers me how often this happens. I've mentioned it before to people I play other but they give me weird eyes and question me as if I'm trying to cheat them. So I've stopped bringing it up entirely.

10k+ Tau, Ke'lshan
10k Dark Eldar Kabal of the Flayed skull
1k Scions
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Just model it a bit differently and have it lean forward on it's base. Not hard to do with a different type of stand, problem solved and not modeling for advantage. You have to take into account the thing is miles high and could easily just nose down to shoot.
   
Made in us
Ruthless Interrogator





That(along with wms) is part of the reason I hate using the base at all. So if my opponent allows it I just run the model on the ground and say it has a 45* firing arc. Not sure if modeling for advantage( I could be easier to hide I guess?) but even then we houserule that zooming fliers are above any terrain around them and so can't claim a cover save from it.


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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




icefire78 wrote:

Also remember any model in the same unit won't block LOS so thus it can shoot through itself without stopping itself from shooting straight down



So you mean all these years i could have fired the Lascannon on the right side of my Land Raider at a target on the left side? I think you need to clarify your statement there just a bit.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Macclesfield, UK

The thing is that vehicles are allowed to pivot freely. For tanks this means turning it on the spot. Flyers on the other hand are instructed to take a 90 degree pivot at maximum. The problem is they don't specify if this is restricted to horizontal movements and not vertical movement. So some people make the assumption that a flyer can pivot it's front face up or down if it wants to but it does make it difficult to do that considering the flying bases that come with the model. I suppose it's also widely understood that a model needs to be on the base it comes with.

In our group we assume that the flyers can indeed shoot nose down like it has been suggested above but I don't really think this is supported by the rules as such. Afterall true line of sight does indeed state that you need to be able to draw a line from the gun to the target you are shooting at.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Ooo, does that mean I can balance a Leman Russ on it's tush so no one can get rear armor shots?

Flyers have limitations, sounds like your friends don't want to deal with that
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 DarthOvious wrote:
Flyers on the other hand are instructed to take a 90 degree pivot at maximum. The problem is they don't specify if this is restricted to horizontal movements and not vertical movement. So some people make the assumption that a flyer can pivot it's front face up or down if it wants to ...

Can't say I've heard that suggested before.

It doesn't work, though. The flyer pivots before it moves. If you use that pivot to angle the nose down to the ground, you're in for a world of hurt when you subsequently move it 18-36" directly forwards...

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Macclesfield, UK

 Crevab wrote:
Ooo, does that mean I can balance a Leman Russ on it's tush so no one can get rear armor shots?


A flyer comes with a flyer base. It already differentiates itself from a Leman Russ by the fact that it sits on this base in mid air. As long as the base is flat you can place a model any way you want on top of it. It's no different from having Guardsmen who are lying on the ground rather than standing up. With a Leman Russ the base is considered to be the bottom of the tank. Not sure if that's dictated by the actual rules or not but it seems to be the general consensus.

Flyers have limitations, sounds like your friends don't want to deal with that


I play in two different groups and they play it the same way. I admit it's pretty much a house rule and that it isn't supported by the rule book but you have to remember than when it comes to house ruling you can take advantage of that particular rule too if you want and I quite like it and think it makes sense from a certain point of view since I consider the nose diving to fire as being quite fluffy before the flyer pulls back up again after it goes past it's target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
 DarthOvious wrote:
Flyers on the other hand are instructed to take a 90 degree pivot at maximum. The problem is they don't specify if this is restricted to horizontal movements and not vertical movement. So some people make the assumption that a flyer can pivot it's front face up or down if it wants to ...

Can't say I've heard that suggested before.


It just seems to be the thing that the people in the two groups I play with automatically assume rather than voice. I've never actually witnessed it being challenged at any point so I just went along with it as well thinking that it was probably allowed. However that isn't to say that it is allowed, this thread has kind of brought this issue to my attention really. However I quite like the way it is currently played among the groups I play in so I'm not fussed in challenging it really. I accept the fact that groups tend to play in slightly different ways and tend to do their own things wither they are supported by the rules or not.

It doesn't work, though. The flyer pivots before it moves. If you use that pivot to angle the nose down to the ground, you're in for a world of hurt when you subsequently move it 18-36" directly forwards...


It depends on how movement is described in the rule book. I don't remember anything that described movement itself as being anything else other than lengthways. The pivot itself I think is a different issue. If we look at the rule book it mentions that a flyer has a combat speed of 18" and a cruising speed of 36", otherwise it's movement is like other models.

In terms of zooming the entry for flyers says this:

"A Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out must move forwards in a straight line between 12" and 24"."



Movement in the rulebook has this caveat along with a picture showing a horizontal movement for models:

"It’s a common mistake to measure the distance and then place the model on the far side of the tape measure. This is incorrect, as it adds the entire length of the model’s base to the distance moved. The diagram above shows correct and incorrect ways of measuring move distance. For an Infantry model on its relatively small base, this additive error isn’t so bad, but imagine what would happen if this error was made with a vehicle 6" long!"

So it describes the movement lengthways and the distance measured is done using the base of the model.



Pivoting For vehicles is described as such:

"Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than wheeling round. Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary (however, Immobilised vehicles cannot even pivot on the spot). Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed. Just like other units, vehicles cannot move over friendly models".

So there is nothing here that suggests to me that pivoting is only done horizontally in concerns to a model on flyer base.

I don't know, perhaps you can find something. I could be wrong and by no means am I suggesting that this is definitive proof. I would like to know myself what the rules actually have to say in concerns to this matter in case the discussion does arise in a game at some point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 07:27:19


 
   
Made in us
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle





FWIW, A Stormraven turret cannot turn 360 degrees.
   
Made in gb
Confessor Of Sins





Newton Aycliffe

 DarthOvious wrote:
 Crevab wrote:
Ooo, does that mean I can balance a Leman Russ on it's tush so no one can get rear armor shots?


A flyer comes with a flyer base. It already differentiates itself from a Leman Russ by the fact that it sits on this base in mid air. As long as the base is flat you can place a model any way you want on top of it. It's no different from having Guardsmen who are lying on the ground rather than standing up. With a Leman Russ the base is considered to be the bottom of the tank. Not sure if that's dictated by the actual rules or not but it seems to be the general consensus.

Flyers have limitations, sounds like your friends don't want to deal with that


I play in two different groups and they play it the same way. I admit it's pretty much a house rule and that it isn't supported by the rule book but you have to remember than when it comes to house ruling you can take advantage of that particular rule too if you want and I quite like it and think it makes sense from a certain point of view since I consider the nose diving to fire as being quite fluffy before the flyer pulls back up again after it goes past it's target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
 DarthOvious wrote:
Flyers on the other hand are instructed to take a 90 degree pivot at maximum. The problem is they don't specify if this is restricted to horizontal movements and not vertical movement. So some people make the assumption that a flyer can pivot it's front face up or down if it wants to ...

Can't say I've heard that suggested before.


It just seems to be the thing that the people in the two groups I play with automatically assume rather than voice. I've never actually witnessed it being challenged at any point so I just went along with it as well thinking that it was probably allowed. However that isn't to say that it is allowed, this thread has kind of brought this issue to my attention really. However I quite like the way it is currently played among the groups I play in so I'm not fussed in challenging it really. I accept the fact that groups tend to play in slightly different ways and tend to do their own things wither they are supported by the rules or not.

It doesn't work, though. The flyer pivots before it moves. If you use that pivot to angle the nose down to the ground, you're in for a world of hurt when you subsequently move it 18-36" directly forwards...


It depends on how movement is described in the rule book. I don't remember anything that described movement itself as being anything else other than lengthways. The pivot itself I think is a different issue. If we look at the rule book it mentions that a flyer has a combat speed of 18" and a cruising speed of 36", otherwise it's movement is like other models.

In terms of zooming the entry for flyers says this:

"A Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out must move forwards in a straight line between 12" and 24"."



Movement in the rulebook has this caveat along with a picture showing a horizontal movement for models:

"It’s a common mistake to measure the distance and then place the model on the far side of the tape measure. This is incorrect, as it adds the entire length of the model’s base to the distance moved. The diagram above shows correct and incorrect ways of measuring move distance. For an Infantry model on its relatively small base, this additive error isn’t so bad, but imagine what would happen if this error was made with a vehicle 6" long!"

So it describes the movement lengthways and the distance measured is done using the base of the model.



Pivoting For vehicles is described as such:

"Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than wheeling round. Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary (however, Immobilised vehicles cannot even pivot on the spot). Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed. Just like other units, vehicles cannot move over friendly models".

So there is nothing here that suggests to me that pivoting is only done horizontally in concerns to a model on flyer base.

I don't know, perhaps you can find something. I could be wrong and by no means am I suggesting that this is definitive proof. I would like to know myself what the rules actually have to say in concerns to this matter in case the discussion does arise in a game at some point.


If you need the logical argument as to "why not":

The rules say this:
Models and Base Sizes
The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with.


So, having "mounted" (which often means "glued") your flyer on his Flight stand, how can you rotate him in any direction but the horizontal?

If you remove the Flyer from the stand, and angle him pointing Up/down, you have broken the rule: he is no longer "mounted" on his flight stand. You are no longer playing by the rules in the book.

And that is absolutely fine:
- When your opponent says nothing in the book is restricting him from pivoting Vertically, you may counter:
- Nothing in the book is restricting my models from having 2 shooting phases.
- Nothing in the book is restricting my models from being able to teleport 36" between my movement phase and shooting phase. I call it the "My Units teleport Phase"
And i could keep going.

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Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
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Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator



Thornton Colorado


And that is absolutely fine:
- When your opponent says nothing in the book is restricting him from pivoting Vertically, you may counter:
- Nothing in the book is restricting my models from having 2 shooting phases.
- Nothing in the book is restricting my models from being able to teleport 36" between my movement phase and shooting phase. I call it the "My Units teleport Phase"
And i could keep going.


Or you can simply explain that is not how 40k works, 40k is a permissive rule base this means nothing can happen unless it is given permission to happen. So in the case of you first example your opponent literally defeats there own argument.


According to the rule book the weapons have a 40 degree vertical ark of fire however a lot of GTs are altering this to a 90 degree ark of fire for easier measuring.

if you are interested you can get one of the FAQs hear https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/40k-faq/

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Macclesfield, UK

ChapertMasterRagnaValick wrote:

And that is absolutely fine:
- When your opponent says nothing in the book is restricting him from pivoting Vertically, you may counter:
- Nothing in the book is restricting my models from having 2 shooting phases.
- Nothing in the book is restricting my models from being able to teleport 36" between my movement phase and shooting phase. I call it the "My Units teleport Phase"
And i could keep going.


Or you can simply explain that is not how 40k works, 40k is a permissive rule base this means nothing can happen unless it is given permission to happen. So in the case of you first example your opponent literally defeats there own argument.


According to the rule book the weapons have a 40 degree vertical ark of fire however a lot of GTs are altering this to a 90 degree ark of fire for easier measuring.

if you are interested you can get one of the FAQs hear https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/40k-faq/


Interesting, I will need to have a look in the rulebook for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BlackTalos wrote:


If you need the logical argument as to "why not":

The rules say this:
Models and Base Sizes
The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with.


So, having "mounted" (which often means "glued") your flyer on his Flight stand, how can you rotate him in any direction but the horizontal?


Well I don't think the word mounted necessarily means it can't have any movement. You can mount a TV stand but I know a lot of TV stands that allow it to be turned so you can see the TV at a better angle. I suppose it depends on your interpretation of the word mounted.

If you remove the Flyer from the stand, and angle him pointing Up/down, you have broken the rule: he is no longer "mounted" on his flight stand. You are no longer playing by the rules in the book.


I did say earlier on that it is considered a rule that the models are put on their base. However I'm not sure if that rule actually appears in 7th edition or wither it's a rule from 6th. You could arrange the model so it's pointing in a specific direction though but still glued to the stand it comes with. You can use a bit of green stuff or whatever to have it pointing downwards to a degree thereby meaning you could draw line of sight from the gun to a model somewhat below you. As another poster has pointed out apparently weapons have a 45 degree firing arc but then again the top point of that arc is not as useful as it aims off into the sky where you are unlikely to find any models as such.

And that is absolutely fine:
- When your opponent says nothing in the book is restricting him from pivoting Vertically, you may counter:
- Nothing in the book is restricting my models from having 2 shooting phases.
- Nothing in the book is restricting my models from being able to teleport 36" between my movement phase and shooting phase. I call it the "My Units teleport Phase"
And i could keep going.


I get what you're saying, you can use the rulebook to justify any number of things because essentially we have a permissive rule set. However I think an opponent is more likely to allow you to fire at a model that's directly in front of your base with no intervening terrain with a flyer than he is to allow you to have a second shooting phase throughout your turns.

I think most of us play with a house rule or two in our games. It just depends largely on what your particular gaming group allows and doesn't allow.

I should point out that the way we play the hurricane bolters are still impeded by it's hull and is unable to fire on the opposite side of the ship. It's just the top weapon on the Stormraven I am talking about here when it comes to the way we play it. I think we just assume that the flyer can be dipping downwards in order to shoot at a unit right in front of it. Of course once again I am not saying that this is within the rules, I am just saying this is the way that both my gaming groups play it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/09 16:58:38


 
   
Made in gb
Confessor Of Sins





Newton Aycliffe

 DarthOvious wrote:
ChapertMasterRagnaValick wrote:

And that is absolutely fine:
- When your opponent says nothing in the book is restricting him from pivoting Vertically, you may counter:
- Nothing in the book is restricting my models from having 2 shooting phases.
- Nothing in the book is restricting my models from being able to teleport 36" between my movement phase and shooting phase. I call it the "My Units teleport Phase"
And i could keep going.


Or you can simply explain that is not how 40k works, 40k is a permissive rule base this means nothing can happen unless it is given permission to happen. So in the case of you first example your opponent literally defeats there own argument.


According to the rule book the weapons have a 40 degree vertical ark of fire however a lot of GTs are altering this to a 90 degree ark of fire for easier measuring.

if you are interested you can get one of the FAQs hear https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/40k-faq/


Interesting, I will need to have a look in the rulebook for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BlackTalos wrote:


If you need the logical argument as to "why not":

The rules say this:
Models and Base Sizes
The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with.


So, having "mounted" (which often means "glued") your flyer on his Flight stand, how can you rotate him in any direction but the horizontal?


Well I don't think the word mounted necessarily means it can't have any movement. You can mount a TV stand but I know a lot of TV stands that allow it to be turned so you can see the TV at a better angle. I suppose it depends on your interpretation of the word mounted.


Most flyers will fit quite snugly on their flight stands, as in you slide it in until it's stuck there. Any slight removal of said stand would be considered removing the model from it's base, something you cannot do. Which also leads me to the next point:
 DarthOvious wrote:
If you remove the Flyer from the stand, and angle him pointing Up/down, you have broken the rule: he is no longer "mounted" on his flight stand. You are no longer playing by the rules in the book.


I did say earlier on that it is considered a rule that the models are put on their base. However I'm not sure if that rule actually appears in 7th edition or wither it's a rule from 6th. You could arrange the model so it's pointing in a specific direction though but still glued to the stand it comes with. You can use a bit of green stuff or whatever to have it pointing downwards to a degree thereby meaning you could draw line of sight from the gun to a model somewhat below you. As another poster has pointed out apparently weapons have a 45 degree firing arc but then again the top point of that arc is not as useful as it aims off into the sky where you are unlikely to find any models as such.


As i stated above, most Flight stands will fit correctly inside the base(underside) of a flyer.

You can Cut apart the base of the flyer so that the flight stand inserts at a 45 degree angle.
You can even fill in the bottom of you flyer, and then glue on a hinge so that the flight stand swivels vertically, just like that TV.

It is called "modelling for advantage"

You can glue all of you space marines lying flat on the floor with boltguns aimed above their heads, or even this:



Look, this Rhino was glued together with "a bit of green stuff or whatever to have it" block line of sight.

It follows all the rules, and breaks none. Just like a swivelling flyer. I mean, this one doesn't even break the rules by the fact that you are modifying the model during the game...
 DarthOvious wrote:
And that is absolutely fine:
- When your opponent says nothing in the book is restricting him from pivoting Vertically, you may counter:
- Nothing in the book is restricting my models from having 2 shooting phases.
- Nothing in the book is restricting my models from being able to teleport 36" between my movement phase and shooting phase. I call it the "My Units teleport Phase"
And i could keep going.


I get what you're saying, you can use the rulebook to justify any number of things because essentially we have a permissive rule set. However I think an opponent is more likely to allow you to fire at a model that's directly in front of your base with no intervening terrain with a flyer than he is to allow you to have a second shooting phase throughout your turns.

I think most of us play with a house rule or two in our games. It just depends largely on what your particular gaming group allows and doesn't allow.

I should point out that the way we play the hurricane bolters are still impeded by it's hull and is unable to fire on the opposite side of the ship. It's just the top weapon on the Stormraven I am talking about here when it comes to the way we play it. I think we just assume that the flyer can be dipping downwards in order to shoot at a unit right in front of it. Of course once again I am not saying that this is within the rules, I am just saying this is the way that both my gaming groups play it.


Sure, and you are free to house-rule exactly as you want it played

Having the Flyers dip down for a strafing run is a great idea. It makes them quite a bit stronger, but ass long as everyone has one and is happy with this, then there is no issue.

If a player who has no flyers feels like the fact that they can shoot 1" in front of them is a bit too strong, i'd suggest reverting to normal rules or at least agreeing with him before the game starts

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/09 17:22:18


DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
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I don't think it's a stretch to assume that flyers are able to roll in the air. Especially ones that are designed off of helicopters.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Macclesfield, UK

 BlackTalos wrote:
Most flyers will fit quite snugly on their flight stands, as in you slide it in until it's stuck there. Any slight removal of said stand would be considered removing the model from it's base, something you cannot do. Which also leads me to the next point:


Does the plastic stand actually count towards the base or is the base just the oval part on the bottom of the stand? It's an honest question here because I don't actually know. I suppose it comes supplied with the model just like the oval part so it could be argued that it's meant to be used also.




As i stated above, most Flight stands will fit correctly inside the base(underside) of a flyer.

You can Cut apart the base of the flyer so that the flight stand inserts at a 45 degree angle.
You can even fill in the bottom of you flyer, and then glue on a hinge so that the flight stand swivels vertically, just like that TV.

It is called "modelling for advantage"

You can glue all of you space marines lying flat on the floor with boltguns aimed above their heads, or even this:



Look, this Rhino was glued together with "a bit of green stuff or whatever to have it" block line of sight.

It follows all the rules, and breaks none. Just like a swivelling flyer. I mean, this one doesn't even break the rules by the fact that you are modifying the model during the game...


I agree that it would be considered modelling for advantage by some players. Is there a rule around modelling for advantage or is it just considered bad sportsmanship? Genuinely asking because once again I don't know.

Also that Rhino is actually pretty disturbing. I don't think I would want to play against that particular model. Too obvious that the player there is doing that so he can hide stuff behind it, he's not even done it for a cool looking effect or anything.

Sure, and you are free to house-rule exactly as you want it played

Having the Flyers dip down for a strafing run is a great idea. It makes them quite a bit stronger, but ass long as everyone has one and is happy with this, then there is no issue.

If a player who has no flyers feels like the fact that they can shoot 1" in front of them is a bit too strong, i'd suggest reverting to normal rules or at least agreeing with him before the game starts


Like I said before I've never had this issue actually pop up. Other players have done it to me and I've done it to them. So for a long time I had the impression that it was allowed but this thread has actually raised the point. I knew that TLOS was needed for the gun to shoot and yet in the case of the turret on a flyer it never actually occurred to me that it would be the same.
   
Made in gb
Confessor Of Sins





Newton Aycliffe

 DarthOvious wrote:
Does the plastic stand actually count towards the base or is the base just the oval part on the bottom of the stand? It's an honest question here because I don't actually know. I suppose it comes supplied with the model just like the oval part so it could be argued that it's meant to be used also.

The thing is, you need to understand what "The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with." means to you.
You probably have your own interpretation of that wording, but to me it is very clear:
"mounted on the base they are supplied with" means that if the entire model was glued together, this rule refers to the end product.

So if you choose not to use the plastic stand (even though it is supplied, shown in the building guide, and the model has a slot for it) then absolutely no one can prove that you are breaking any rules.

You could glue all of your flyers to the base directly, without the stand. It could be modelling for advantage, but you are loosing so much LoS, wing clearance over other models, etc, that i don't even know if it would be more benefits than restrictions......
 DarthOvious wrote:
I agree that it would be considered modelling for advantage by some players. Is there a rule around modelling for advantage or is it just considered bad sportsmanship? Genuinely asking because once again I don't know.

Also that Rhino is actually pretty disturbing. I don't think I would want to play against that particular model. Too obvious that the player there is doing that so he can hide stuff behind it, he's not even done it for a cool looking effect or anything.

No, there are no rules on modelling for advantage. GW wrote all the rules expecting you to follow the instruction manual found inside the boxes of models.

Modelling for advantage is a very thin line, because most cool conversions will probably give models an advantage over the standard "follow the instructions" build.
Which is why you are free to model your flyers any way you like, and it does indeed come down to being just considered bad sportsmanship.

Modifying a model during a game, however, is in the rules i have linked and you have 0 permission to modify a model during play.

So the same Flyer angled at 45 degrees to aim at the ground would be unable to fire a 48" Lascannon at a distant target. If you "pivot him vertically" in order to get the right angle, then you are breaking rules.

MFA: not a rule and not really an issue.

Pivot Vertically: Breaking rules, and what i was calling you on for this thread.

 DarthOvious wrote:
Like I said before I've never had this issue actually pop up. Other players have done it to me and I've done it to them. So for a long time I had the impression that it was allowed but this thread has actually raised the point. I knew that TLOS was needed for the gun to shoot and yet in the case of the turret on a flyer it never actually occurred to me that it would be the same.

All weapons on a flyer follow this good representation:


You could always print/take this picture with you and show your gaming group that the rules actually say this.

Or just keep playing by the House-rules that have been set, but understand that your Gaming group are giving big Boosts to flyers effectiveness and a new player or someone who moved and joined might see this as cheating, because it is not how the rules go.

In which case, as i said, make sure you agree which version you are playing with anyone new

DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Macclesfield, UK

 BlackTalos wrote:
The thing is, you need to understand what "The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with." means to you.
You probably have your own interpretation of that wording, but to me it is very clear:
"mounted on the base they are supplied with" means that if the entire model was glued together, this rule refers to the end product.

So if you choose not to use the plastic stand (even though it is supplied, shown in the building guide, and the model has a slot for it) then absolutely no one can prove that you are breaking any rules.

You could glue all of your flyers to the base directly, without the stand. It could be modelling for advantage, but you are loosing so much LoS, wing clearance over other models, etc, that i don't even know if it would be more benefits than restrictions......


Personally I have used the stand and the base that comes with the Stormravens I have bought. Even though we play with this house rule, one of the places where I play is in a Games Workshop. So they still require the model to be put on a stand and they tend be quite restrictive on what you use on the models cause most of it needs to be Games Workshop supplied models or Forge World. i.e. you can't just take in any model and say this is a counts as.


No, there are no rules on modelling for advantage. GW wrote all the rules expecting you to follow the instruction manual found inside the boxes of models.

Modelling for advantage is a very thin line, because most cool conversions will probably give models an advantage over the standard "follow the instructions" build.
Which is why you are free to model your flyers any way you like, and it does indeed come down to being just considered bad sportsmanship.

Modifying a model during a game, however, is in the rules i have linked and you have 0 permission to modify a model during play.

So the same Flyer angled at 45 degrees to aim at the ground would be unable to fire a 48" Lascannon at a distant target. If you "pivot him vertically" in order to get the right angle, then you are breaking rules.

MFA: not a rule and not really an issue.

Pivot Vertically: Breaking rules, and what i was calling you on for this thread.


In regards to pivoting vertically I was just asking about it. The rules in regards to pivoting were not too clear. Afterall if you want to pivot a tank you can. The rules allow you to turn the model during movement phase no problem as long as the base is fine on the table. I was just clarifying what others thought about flyers since they come with a stand and there is the potential to have them pivot vertically while the base stays flat on the table. I haven't done it myself but I just wanted to know how others thought about it in case I ever come up against it or was ever tempted to try it myself. From this conversation I think it's not something I would do since others would consider it bad play from the looks of it.


All weapons on a flyer follow this good representation:


You could always print/take this picture with you and show your gaming group that the rules actually say this.

Or just keep playing by the House-rules that have been set, but understand that your Gaming group are giving big Boosts to flyers effectiveness and a new player or someone who moved and joined might see this as cheating, because it is not how the rules go.

In which case, as i said, make sure you agree which version you are playing with anyone new


OK thanks. One of the groups I play in is actually a GW store, one of the bigger ones where they arrange events so I would run it by the staff first to question it if I was to do so. However I have always been OK with it to say the least but if it ever does come up then at least I'll know what the proper rule is so I can explain it.

The crazy thing is that in the picture above it would the same for a flyer that went into hover mode as well. A Stormraven in that position would still be unable to shoot at that model.
   
Made in gb
Confessor Of Sins





Newton Aycliffe

You are correct, the Arcs shown above would be the same whether you Hover or Zoom.

But it is a known fact that flyers have a restricted "Minimum range" if you can think of it that way.

The picture above is a little extreme, because if you measure the same thing on a real table, it is usually only about 6-10 inches. And as your flyers can't get within 1" of an enemy, it is quite rare, or just very poor choice of placement for the enemy to be "too close".

Most flyers are also angled down slightly by default, so the margin shown above is very small.

Ass for the flight stem issue: I only have an Avenger Strike Fighter, but i am quite sure i had a look at my friend's Stormraven.

When you insert the flight stand fully, it is very hard / impossible to pivot the model on the stem.... Unless the notch on the model you use has been abraded from a lot of use? You can usually change the angle of your flyer by mounting him one way or the other (say facing forward or backwards on his base), but that is back to our earlier comment: you can pick (1) or (2) but cannot switch during the game.

DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Macclesfield, UK

 BlackTalos wrote:
You are correct, the Arcs shown above would be the same whether you Hover or Zoom.

But it is a known fact that flyers have a restricted "Minimum range" if you can think of it that way.

The picture above is a little extreme, because if you measure the same thing on a real table, it is usually only about 6-10 inches. And as your flyers can't get within 1" of an enemy, it is quite rare, or just very poor choice of placement for the enemy to be "too close".

Most flyers are also angled down slightly by default, so the margin shown above is very small.

Ass for the flight stem issue: I only have an Avenger Strike Fighter, but i am quite sure i had a look at my friend's Stormraven.

When you insert the flight stand fully, it is very hard / impossible to pivot the model on the stem.... Unless the notch on the model you use has been abraded from a lot of use? You can usually change the angle of your flyer by mounting him one way or the other (say facing forward or backwards on his base), but that is back to our earlier comment: you can pick (1) or (2) but cannot switch during the game.


thanks you for the advice and input. I'll keep it in mind in case it ever needs to be brought up.
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

You want to talk about firing arcs? Just try to figure out the arcs for the Space Wolves' Stormfang or Stormwolf ships.

If you really want to go down the Rabbit Hole of firing arcs, then make sure you bring your laser pointer that makes a line and a protractor with you to the table and have a good handle on geometry.

Of course, be prepared to get "tanked" on sportsmanship. I'd play one game with you. Just one though.

Games Workshop has NEVER been able to incorporate vehicles into 40K very well. Firing Arcs are just the tip of the iceberg.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Tamwulf wrote:
You want to talk about firing arcs? Just try to figure out the arcs for the Space Wolves' Stormfang or Stormwolf ships.

It's a 45 degree angle. How's that hard?

If you really want to go down the Rabbit Hole of firing arcs, then make sure you bring your laser pointer that makes a line and a protractor with you to the table and have a good handle on geometry.

Or... fold a piece of paper in half at the corner - bam, 45 degree angle.

Of course, be prepared to get "tanked" on sportsmanship. I'd play one game with you. Just one though.

Tanking sportsmanship for insisting rules are followed? O.o

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Macclesfield, UK

Was he referring to the long hull that the Space Wolves flyer has in front of it? Does it get in the way of it's 45 degree firing arc?
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





The Stormfang's big gun has it's barrel at the end of the hull, so nothing is in the way.

The Stormwolf has 2 lascannons way back on the hull. Again, the firing arc isn't difficult to figure out, it's just anti-air only, basically.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Macclesfield, UK

rigeld2 wrote:
The Stormfang's big gun has it's barrel at the end of the hull, so nothing is in the way.

The Stormwolf has 2 lascannons way back on the hull. Again, the firing arc isn't difficult to figure out, it's just anti-air only, basically.


The Hellfrost Cannon?

Do you not think the hull gets in the way of firing it forward with it's blast profile?

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Stormwolf-Assault-Craft
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

NVM

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 18:45:59


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defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

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