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So I badly need help with this list. I thought it was ok, but then I had my first match and just got annihilated, I only killed 1 opposing unit through the whole game. I got pretty depressed by this, and feel like maybe I should just go back to playing eldar, even if it would be waste of all the money I put into tau.

I haven't played 40k in a long time, and wanted to get back into it with some Tau, as I had 1 riptide from old, and had gotten 1 free one from a friend who stopped playing. Riptides look so good, so I bought a Tau firebase support cadre to add my favorite models, riptides and broadsides. I really like mechs, so I thought I would go farsight enclave and go full mech. I used some eldar wraith guards as proxy for crisis suits that I had planned to build later. I thought getting a game in first, see how that goes, so I could tweek my list and make some small changes before I committed. At this point I just feel like the whole list needs to be scrapped though.

If you are wondering about the lack of markerlights, this is because I didn't really have the points for them (I could have made room for 2 drones or maybe a pathfinder unit, but I feel I would need more teams to make marker lights effective), and most of my stuff is TL, reroll 1s, or 2x shots.

List
HQ:
Commander with TL Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod

Troops
3x Crisis Suits, BK, TL Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod (runs with commander)
3x Crisis Suits, BK, 2x Plasma Rifle
3x Crisis Suits, BK, 2x Plasma Rifle
3x Crisis Suits, BK, 2x Fusion Rifle (against MEC, suicide drop and kill a tank if needed)

Elite
Riptide, ECPA, IA, TL SMS, EWO
Riptide, ECPA, IA, TL SMS
Riptide, ECPA, HBC, TL SMS, VT, EWO

Heavy Support
3x Broadside, BK, TL Heavy Rail Rifle, TL SMS (only because I think these look so cool)
3x Broadside, BK, TL HYMP, TL SMS, VT
3x Broadside, BK, TL HYMP, TL SMS, VT



Things I think I should change:
-What I noticed is that he ran with almost 0 troops, and I guess that is a new meta with 7th, so I should probably have dropped most of my crisis suits. I assume some people would tell me to run kroots, but I hate kroots. I kinda like fire warriors, but it would ruin the theme of the list, but not totally averse to it.
-I could have added marker lights to deal with his cover save on hierodule, especially if I start dropping crisis suits, but they wouldn't be much help against the flying hive tyrants or deep striking mawlocs.
-I see people running an O'Vesa star, it is super expensive, and I am not sure if I would benefit much from it here, if the 4 star units were too close together, he would just mawloc them to death anyway.
-Broadsides with VT is really expensive, 60 points to put VT on all of them, just do die in turn 1/2. It might be adventageous to not have them on the broadsides so that he can't just kill them in turn 1/2 or make them BS1. In stead I could have it on all my riptides, but IA aren't as good against these flyers as the HBC or missilesides.
-I could try and add a flyer or two (Sun Shark Bomber?) to give me markerlight and more anti-air. They would also be immune to the Mawloc's deep strike shenanigans.
-I could add a buffmander and a squad of fire warriors, buffmander added to one of the riptides.

Opponent Tyranids
If it is of interest, this is what my opponent was running:

My Opponent was running. (Going by memory here, so I might get some of the names wrong, or misspell them, I also don't understand 7th edition FOC, so I don't really understand how one runs 3 HQ but whatever)
HQ:
Flying Hive Tyrant, TL Brain Leech Devourers (12x TL S6 R18" shots)
Flying Hive Tyrant, TL Brain Leech Devourers
Flying Hive Tyrant, TL Brain Leech Devourers

Heavy Support
Mawloc (No idea what he had this kitted with, he never used it to shoot or assault)
Mawloc
Mawloc
Barbed Hierodule, Bio-Cannon (think it was 2x6 shots at S10, AP3+)

Elite:
Venomthrope? (It was just a thing that gave his Barbed Hierodule +2 cover save)

Troops:
Spore Mine Cluster? (He only had 2 troops, some crapy unit at 12 points)

When he told me about his list right before the game, I just realized how hopeless my army would be. I have no idea how to deal with 6 Large Blast S6 AP2 that I can't hide or get cover from. I pictured my broadsides all dying in turn 2 when they started deepstriking, and that is pretty much how it went.


The Game
If you are curious, this is a short description of how the game went:

I was really afraid of his AP2 blasts, and ap3 s10 gun, so I started with all my crisis suits in reserve.

[TURN 1]
He started by flying his hive tyrants over and killing one unit of missilesides, the one without velocity tracker. Then he used psychich powers to make my missilesides BS1.
In my turn, I was able to kill a hive tyrant using my riptide with velocity tracker. I pumped my 2 un-novad IA riptides and 3 riflesides into his Hierodule. That is when he told me he had 2+ cover save, toughness 8 and feel no pain. I didn't even scratch him. MY BS1 anti-air missilesides puts 1 wound on one of his hive tyrants.

[Turn 2]
He starts by killing my last unit of missilesides (with VT), they die to S6 AP2 deepstrike blastst from Mawloc. 1 Mawloc is now on the table. Last Mawloc puts some wounds on my riflesides. Then he psychics my riptide with VT down to BS1.
I drop in my crisis suits, all of them win reinfocements roll, so I decide to try and get all those AP2/AP1 shots into the hierodule, at a range where he only gets 5+ cover from shrouded and I get rapid fire. One plasma unit dies to mishap before DS. 1 plasma unit lands too far away and doesn't get rapid fire. 3 units + commander pump 30 shots at AP2+. Hierodule takes 1 wound. My riflesides and IA riptides kill the Mawloc, and fails at putting wounds on hive tyrants.

[Turn 3]
Mawlocs deepstrike blasts 2x S6 AP 2 each on my commander unit, it dies immediately. Hive tyrants recast BS1 on my HBC VT riptide, Hierodule Split fires and kills my last two crisis units with his 2x6 S10 AP3 shots. Hive tyrants put 4 wounds into my HBC riptide with VT.
All I have left now are 3 ritpides and 3 riflesides, my broadsides and IA riptides can't touch the hierodule. My novad HBC riptide manages to put 1 wound into one of his hive tyrants.

At this point I just conceeded the fight, all my troops were dead and what I had left could barely wound him IF I was lucky.

Since I am new to Tau and 7th, I was hoping for some tips before I give up and scrap the army, I have never been so demotivated after a game before. I lose pretty often, but usually I have fun playing even so. I couldn't do anything to my opponent, while he went through my stuff like it was nothing. This game was against tyranids, but I am also unsure of how to deal with the Imperial Knights and other super units like Cathan? (The green necron guy) that I saw other people using.

Well the trancendant ctan got a massive de buff when the new codex dropped so I don't expect those to be too much of an issue.

Your list is ok and sticks with an all suit theme but it is ineffecient in some ways.

You need markerlights. Period. Tau is a shooting army that is bs3 across the board, they need the bonus to their bs and ignores cover to be effective. Tetras are the best option for this in my opinion, they can have a 3+ jink giving them some much needed durability and they have twin linked heavy 2 markers.

Don't take tl weapons on crisis suits, just take 2 plasmas or 2 fusions.

If you don't want tetras the "mark o" commander with two Missle pods and then drone controller. I don't like having a t4 commander with 4 wounds and only a 3+ save and no eternal warrior. It's too easy to s8 him in the face.

Otherwise I would load out the commander with 2 fusions and drop him in with the crisis suits, maybe with a stim injector.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do not deepstrike broadsides, didn't even know you could but don't.

Take all high yeild Missle pods on your broadsides. No rail rifles.

Take off all the smart Missle systems on riptides. Replace with fusion blasters.

Don't give up on the greater good, tau have a strong codex currently, just have to get used to them. You want to sell everything I'll take the riptides off your hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Might consider a skysheild for broadsides for an invuln

Broadsides are in general useless because whatever he doesn´t kill in round 1, gets instakilled in round 2 with his 6 S6 AP2 large blasts. 200/260 points that die after one turn of fire doesn´t seem worth it, no matter if they are rifle or missiles.

Markerligts are useless against an enemy that is flying or never enters the board. Off course, they are probably awsome against non-nids.

I can see getting some extra wounds on the hierodule with ML by removing it´s cover save, but it still has T8 and FNP, if I take no rifle broadsides as you suggest, then there is a good chance the only thing in range will be my two Ion Accelerators. 6 shots at s7, that´s 5 hits with markerlights, 4-ish without. Then at 5+ to wound that´s 1 or 2 hits no matter what, and he still get´s FNP. Like I said above, I pumped 30 shots into him and managed to get in 1 wound, that was with a 5+ cover save. I realized I was unlucky, but since he annihilates all my troops in one turn, if I can´t kill him when I drop inn at turn 2, then I have pretty much lost the game? In another game, I might not even get that many on the board at the same time, then he can just split fire them as they drop in each turn.

I can see using fusion blasters on riptide, it will make me less effective against this tyranid list, but more effective against MEC I guess.

I might take you up on that offer, how much would you pay for an unpainted riptide?

One last thing, I thought the earth caste pilot array was an artefact and therefore could only be taken once per army.

If you want to go regular tau empire I feel like there are some real benifits to that. For one you don't have to pay the bonding knife tax and two I think firewarriors in devilfish are more durable and harder hitting than a group of crisis suits. An ethereal with one 11 man and a 12 man squad of Fire warriors both In devilfish have a 3+ jink and can move 12" then disembark another 6", then has 69 s5 shots(combine with markerlights for additional bs) and the 8 s5 shots per fish so another 16. That is a ton of dakka and not a ton of points. Fire warriors themselves are squishy but they also create a targeting priority issue for your opponent. Shoot the objective secured or shoot the damage I.e your riptides and broadsides.

First off you cannot have ECPA on all your Riptides, keep the ECPA on the Burstide. It is a signature item and only 1 of them can have it. Also, IC cannot join MC anymore thanks to 7ed. Next take out all the VT on the Broadsides (too expensive). Just take dual weapons for the crisis suits, not TL. That nets you about 200 points.
I got to say you are up against a pretty nasty list and with a gargantuan creature (Barbed Hierodule, I assume) and 3 FMC. Next, probably take out 1 unit of broadside (HRR) and 1 Riptide. With that switch your 6 remaining broadsides and a Riptide to a FBSC, it’s a formation that gains Tank hunter and PE:SM (Not really useful against tyranids but it really good against marines). That now leaves you with 3 empty HS in which you can add 3 skyrays each with a D-pod. For your troops probably have only 1 full unit of 3 suits and more MSU (score points easier unless you are going for kill points). Here is an example list:
-3 x dual MP suits
-Riptide with HBC, SMS, EWO, VT, ECPA
-3 x Skyrays with D-pod
Formation
-2 x 3 missilesides with EWO and SMS
-Iontide with SMS and EWO
Total around 1400 points. That leaves you with 450 more points for more troops and HQ. Now the strategy against that tyranids list is simple. He will at most only start with 3-5 units on the table (Hierodule, Venomtrope, some troops)? Kill that venomtrope ASAP (use your deathrain suits to kill it) . Now once that little bugger is dead point all three skyray at the big bug and let their entire missile go! Now that is 18 missiles with S8 and AP3. Assuming BS5, they have 2 network market light and starts at BS4, you will hit with 15 missiles and wound with 7.5. There is a good possibility you might be able to table him Turn 1. Also, the skyray has VT too. The D-pod is just there just in case he goes first and targets your skyrays. Probably will need more markerlights, tetras would be some great options. Hope this helps! Smash those bugs!!!

Thanks Tautastic, I am really liking that list. I think I will give it a go. Here is what I got from it: http://tinyurl.com/prpteka

I decided to go for a drone commander, as recommended by Epartalis. I agree that pretty much anything else I can do with him will just get him killed and give my opponent free points, so I think I might hide him behind some terrain and let my drones do their thing from the sides. Nothing I can do about Mawlocs deepstriking his drone squad though, but hopefully other things on the table will be more scary in the beginning, so my opponent will leave him be.

Dropping the rifle broadsides is fine, I think they look awesome, but if I want to have a chance against the kind of list my opponent uses, I can't bring stuff just because I like the fluff. I also think it would be better to drop them rather than convert them to missile sides, I have 2 squads on the table and either they do their job well enough, or they die so fast that a 3rd squad would be a waste of points.

Dropping crisis suits is also fine, as long as I get to run a squad or two. They melt under both Mawloc blasts or bio-cannon anyway, so running too many squads seems like a bad idea. At this point I could drop farsight enclave, it would save me 9-12 points in bonding knives, but I would lose ECPA and go with a FNP from Stim Inj at +5 points. A gun that does 12 'gets hot' tests on a succesfull nova, or auto wounds itself on a failed nova charge, every round, needs FNP or ECPA.

So what do I do with the rest of my points?
-I am thinking of going with 2xFire Warriors in 2xDevilfish with SMS. Are these any good for the point cost? If so, I could go with more of these types of squads.
-I could put in the third riptide, I agree that it doesn't put out the damage other things can, but it can also take a beating.
-I could put in a hammerhead, but it seems kinda expensive for what will probably amount to 1 shot at S10 every round.
-I could put in some pathfinders: one or two teams of 4 depending on how many left over points I have at the end. (I don't like the tetras, so I want to drop them if I can) At what point do I have too many markerlights?
-Sun Shark bomber any good?
-I could add a unit or two of crisis suits with Pulse Rifles. 12 shots rapidfire at ap2 is kinda nice, and good against lists that run a lot of 2+ and 3+ armor, which in the current list I only have 1 IA to deal with this. Bonus is that they can drop them in behind an SM squad of Centurions. I saw one of the guys where I play runs a librarian with (rerolable?) inv save in front, so being able to come from behind is a bonus. A unit like that will one shot riptides or broadsides if it gets in range though, and might even have shots to spare.

Any of you know how the Talisman of Arthas Moloch works in 7th edition? (allows wearer do take 4 dice for Deny the Witch in stead of 1, taking the highest result) Could it be useful to stop his flyrants screwing my BS down to 1 on my VT units? Would it be useful against other armies as well?

First of all do you guys play Maelstrom missions or eternal?
I do not know much of the mechanics on Mawlocs but my understanding is that if you cannot place it in the middle of the blast then it mishaps. Since the blast is only S6 and Ap2 it should always mishap due to your suits and broadsides being T4 and 2W. My suggestion would be just spread out your units and mainly ignore the Mawloc.

Now if you guys are playing Maelstrom missions, play the mission and rack up points. His flyers cannot score and your suits have objective secured. Keep up the enclave theme! Suits are awesome!

-Hammerheads and FW in a Dfish is more for casual games (Ethereal with the FW could be competitive but keep the suits theme).
-Tau fliers are meh except for barracuda (FW)
-Third Riptide will be a waste unless you can support it with marker lights
-The formation will eat SM anyday! They have PE:SM and also give them all EWO. With EWO anything that arrives from reserve you get to shoot first! Nothing space marine will dare get close them. Just drown those 2+ saves in wounds and they will eventually fail. 24 S7 and 24 S5 TL shots with rerollable 1s to wound will make short work of those centurion. Also, you out range them.
-Talisman will be a great item! For 7th you deny on a roll of 2+ (instead of rolling 4 dice, look at the FAQ).

With the list of models you have provided I have came up with this:

-Commander w/ dual MP, target lock and drone controller + 2 ML drones (Joins the deathrain suits)
-3 x dual MP and all target lock + 4 ML drones.
-5 x single unit with on TL weapon of your choice (prefer FB for the heavy tanks)
-Riptide with HBC, SMS, EWO, VT, ECPA, Talisman
-2 squad of 5 pathfinders
-2 Skyrays both with D-Pods
Formation
-2 x 3 Missilesides with EWO and SMS (Don't need BK since it is not part of the enclave)
-Iontide with SMS and EWO

Total = 1839pts

We were playing eternal, I thought it best to stick with old maps since I know how they work mostly.

Alright, I like that list. Any tips on how to deploy the crisis suits, keep them all except command squad off the table in round 1?

The Mawlocs are way more scary than what you think they are. They drop a S6 Ap2 when they deep strike, if they can't place the model, they drop another S6 Ap2, then they roll on the mishap table, where only a 6 will have them removed. That means in turn 2, he was steamrolling my broadsides with 6x S6 Large Blast Ap2. If he is slightly above average, he can take out 3 squads of broadsides in one turn. I don't think I can spread out enough to still be in unit cohesion and not have all 3 under the large blast plate? Which is why I just can't rely on broadsides for more than 1 round of fire, if I am lucky he screws up the reinforcement roll. Spreading the crisis suits in one unit squads makes it a lot easier to keep them safe from mawloc, but my commander squad with drones and 3 other crisis suits will die in turn 2. Riptides are kinda safe, because I used nova reactor to give them +4inv save, but they do end up wounding themselvs a third of the time in stead, so eh.

You say the Dfish is more for casual games, but this was a casual game. My original list wasn't meant to be taken to a tournament, it was meant to be something fun to play casually, as a theme/fluff list. My opponent new this, and he new I had never played Tau before, I didn't know what half my stuff did when we started playing. It's hard for me to judge, since I haven't played in a long time, but his list didn't feel like he was playing a casual game against a new player. Still, I couldn't believe how extremely ineffective I was.

 Acidian wrote:
this was a casual game.

Spamming Flyrants / Mawlocs with a Barbie is not a casual game.

Tautastic's advice is pretty spot in - the Mech approach does work and can be really fun to play, it just has bad match ups (like most themed lists) and this is one of them. Don't lose faith in the greater good, just invest in marker lights and your experience of Tau will change for the better.

 Acidian wrote:
At what point do I have too many markerlights?

Never. Well, if you have more marker lights than actual guns you might be close, but generally never (as long as they are not all in one unit).

 Acidian wrote:
3x Broadside, BK, TL Heavy Rail Rifle, TL SMS (only because I think these look so cool

I know, they look awesome, but they really suckass on the field of battle unfortunately. Keep them though, they might get buffed in the next codex

Oh it has been awhile since I played against a Mawloc. But still you can mainly just ignore them. I mean first they have to roll in from reserve which is 2/3 a chance to get in. The main thing is they still scatter! 1/3 is the only chance “Hit.” So with 3 Mawlocs there is only a 66% (total, not with each) chance to actually get a “Hit.” Just be sure to spread your units so at most he can only hit 2 models at a time. Oh ya the nova riptide shield are a 3++ btw.
Your opponents list is definitely not a “casual game.” I mean flying circus and cent star…They are usually tournament lists. The one I listed is semi-competitive but will need some practice and knowledge of your opponent. It relies a lot on your/opponent deployment, terrain, and who goes first. Remember you get a +1 on your roll of seize the initiative if your opponent has a SHV or Gargantuan and you do not. Also, 1 VP for each 3HP/W they lose.
With that be sure to play maelstrom missions and use your solo suits to score points. Maelstrom missions are usually anti-death star kind of game. If you play the same tyranid list, but maelstrom this time, start all your units on the board (spread out). Have your solo suits approach the objectives, use the death rain suits to kill the venomthrope. Then put some ML on the big bug. Nuke it with you skyrays. If it is still alive kill it with your burstide, broadside, iontide, and solo suits (in that order). With w/e you have left kill those spore mines. Chances are you will go first, roughly 67% of the time, which will give you 2 shooting phase to try and table him before his reserves arrives. Go teach those nasty little buggers a lesson!

Remember you get a +1 on your roll of seize the initiative if your opponent has a SHV or Gargantuan and you do not. Also, 1 VP for each 3HP/W they lose.

Oh man, I wish I had known this. I rolled a 5 on the seize roll, getting my missilesides to shoot once before he took them out the next turn would have been a big help. Also, if I get 1vp for each 3W I take on them, means I don´t have to worry so much about losing 1vp if my commander dies taking it out.

Thanks all of you, I am feeling a lot more confident with the new list and knowledge you have given me.

Isn't that a 6th ed / escalation rule? Don't think its in 7th under SHV or Gargantuans...?

Kholzerino wrote:
Isn't that a 6th ed / escalation rule? Don't think its in 7th under SHV or Gargantuans...?

I apologize. You are correct. I probably just confused it with a tournament FAQ. Thanks for correcting me.

I think the 'Impending Doom' rule still counts - 7th Ed. BRB doesn't really deal with Lords of War, so you still refer to Escalation which still has that rule for the +1 if your opponent has a LoW but you do not.

Unless it was FAQ'd, but I couldn't find anything,