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Recently i've tried out a murderpack and quite liked it. They've murderised a squad of 2 chapter masters with bikes - one of which had shield eternal. Anywayz, i feel like i've screwed up with the loadout as i was confident that flails are specialist weapons while they're not in the dex, thus, they don't give +1 attack paired with fists(?).

I've run this loadout:
Leader - Fist with Heavy flamer and Flail
Helbrute - Fist with Heavy flamer and Flail
3 Helbrutes - Fist and multimelta

What do you think about flails on the whole? Is it worth to spend 10 extra points to get a s8 weapon instead of a s10 fist but with -d3 WS for the opponent? Note, that while in pack, they're gona touch less models due to pile in moves. On the other hand, a leader with 2 flails (can he take 2?) will have 3 s8 attacks and will reduce ws of potential challengers by 2d3. But as i see, he won't be able to affect stuff out of challenges. And that's 20 extra points.

Or would you probably equip regular brutes with a flail instead of fist and champ would just go with 2 fists for 3 base attacks at s10?

You can equip two flails on a helbrute, but I don't think the effect stacks. So it'd be just like having a flail and a second, backup flail. I don't honestly think murderpacks are where the flail is most useful, but instead in hellcults. Reducing WS will let the cultists (as well as any marines that are using them as a screen) absolutely slaughter even MEQs. I usually run my cultists as nurgle marked and use them as tarpits, but a scourge would let them deal a lot more damage. Also, I've never had anyone tell me that the mouth in the dark vengeance helbrute's powerfist can't be a heavy flamer, so think about that for a bit of crowd management as well.

But you only reduce ws of models in BTB. Unless it's a tiny tiny squad, cultists won't see any benefits. Maybe just this few models in b2b with a dread will hit them on 4-s instead of 3-s.

But for a challenging character dread it might be significant. Although, as i see it, they've replaced dreadnought ccw with a power fist for some reason. And power fists are specialist weapons. Means no extra attack unless there's a second fist or thunder hammer. Makes me sad panda helbrute I'd probably run a champ with fist + hammer.

Well, seems flails are obsolete. Albeit they look so cool. Maybe one on a regular dude instead of fist. Just in case they run into a MC.

I've run another setup that i liked more.

Champ: 2 fists, flamer
Brute: 2 fists, flamer
Brute: flail, multimelta
2 Brutes: fist, multimelta

This one flail is actually quite handy when it comes to killing MC. Champ still retains attacks with double fists. I'm thinkingon a best way to load them with flamers. Maybe champ with flamer is not thebest option. On the other hand, he's generally better hidden, so this flamer will live to see actual use.

Keep in mind that walkers don't care about the specialist weapon rule. They get +1 attack per weapon after the first, regardless of its special rules.

caelim wrote:
Keep in mind that walkers don't care about the specialist weapon rule. They get +1 attack per weapon after the first, regardless of its special rules.

well, i couldn't find the rule that allows walkers to ignore Specialist's Weapon special rule. Only unwieldy.

caelim wrote:
Keep in mind that walkers don't care about the specialist weapon rule. They get +1 attack per weapon after the first, regardless of its special rules.

Could you point me to a section where this is mentioned in the BRB?

More or less the same way I use them. S10 is nice, but you have tonnes of dudes with S10 - the only reason to need the fist is if you need S10 in a challenge.

Even against a necron lord, S8 with -1-3 WS still does the job.

Definitely agreed on the flamers, too. When you've got a 500 point squad, being tarpitted by guardsmen or gaunts is a real risk. Facing 2-5 heavy flamers is an....effective discouragement...

The only other murderpack version I've found which works well is a medium-weight firebase. Dig them into cover with missile launcher and plasma cannon (keep a flail on the champion because challenges) and abuse your ability to fire frenzy a 'brute automatically every time it takes a hit....or suffers Gets Hot damage.

Isn't the point of the fist/hammer the AP2 as well? Does the flail have AP2?

All of them are ap2.

Fist is: S x2, ap2, Specialist's Weapon, Unwieldy
Thunder Hammer is: S x2, ap2, Specialist's Weapon, Unwieldy, Concussion
Power Scourge is: S8, ap2, Flail

Note that unlike fist and hammer, flail is not a specialist's weapon. It was probably designed like this not to give up an extra attack. On the other hand, dreadnouht CCW are just S x2, ap2 - regular weapons and dreads used to have regular dreadnought ccw, so it might also be an oversight with flails not giving +1 attack when dreads got dread cw switched to power fists.

Aah... That's a bit daft then!