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I've been seeing a lot of people lately saying that SM armies are only good if they're bike armies and that lists based off of tactical marines and ground forces aren't cutting it in 7th ed. Is there any truth to this, or is it mostly just people fear mongering?

Fear mongering. Bikes are very good, but there are plenty of other viable builds.

Funnily enough, a space marine scout list came in 2nd at the LVO this weekend. A small unit of Centurions, a thunderfire cannon, a command squad, and a bunch of scouts.

White scars are definitely powerful, but by no means the only way to play SM.

The other common competitive option I hear about is grav centurionss with Tigurius or Loth. Another one I read about used at one of the big tournaments was Ultramarines with LOTS of tactical squads and Sternguard in drop pods along with Calgar.

Flukes happen, but yes Bikers are the only way to really compete with Space Marines.
1. Bikers are easy as hell to unlock as a troop choice. We like Chapter Masters on bikes anyway, so there's little excuse.
2. Drop Pods are better used with Sternguard, as the job of Tacticals is easily replaced. Use the Bikers to grab objectives and get special weapons, and let Sternguard do the alpha strikes since they're better for the points compared to Tacticals.
3. Very few of the Chapter Tactics don't gain some benefit from using Bikers. Ultramarines got Doctrine shenanigans, we already know what White Scars do, Iron Hands get a 1/6 chance of ignoring everything S9 and below, Red Scorpions can give out regular FNP, Carcharodons can easily give out Rage for better charges...the options are just there.

Seriously? A SM scout list just came in second at one of the biggest, most competitive 40k tournaments ever. A second centurion/gk list was in the top 8. Many of the top tournament players around the world do very well with non bike SM armies. Bikes are great, but they are absolutely not the only way to play competitive SMs. In fact, they have a few key weaknesses against certain lists in the meta that hurt them competitively. For one, flyrants eat bikes, since bikes are crap against FMCs and the flyrants will drown them in bullets with impunity. They have a few other bad matchups as well. Now, they're still good, there was a bike list in the top 8 at LVO, but they're not the only way to run SM.

Speaking of the LVO, where can you find the top lists? A sentinels of terra/blood angels list came in 2nd, with another BA+knight list in the top 16 i think.

Stormtalon. 140pts of sheer OP zooming flier firing TL lascannons and TL assault cannons! When used with a decent army, can take out anything...

 th3maninblak wrote:
Speaking of the LVO, where can you find the top lists? A sentinels of terra/blood angels list came in 2nd, with another BA+knight list in the top 16 i think.

Can't help ya on most of it, but here's 1st and 2nd place. The Tyranid tactica thread had these posted because #Lictorshame won again.

http://i.imgur.com/20KLApr.jpg

I would argue the opposite. I would argue that the only way to feild marines competitively is to make a cent star with 3+ librarians. Scouts in LSS is an equally efficient unit to bikes and does not require a bike HQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinjaJc01 wrote:
Stormtalon. 140pts of sheer OP zooming flier firing TL lascannons and TL assault cannons! When used with a decent army, can take out anything...

Storm talon is great - I call it little bird. I give it sky hammer missiles and Chuck Dakka at stuff.

 DarkLink wrote:
Seriously? A SM scout list just came in second at one of the biggest, most competitive 40k tournaments ever. A second centurion/gk list was in the top 8. Many of the top tournament players around the world do very well with non bike SM armies. Bikes are great, but they are absolutely not the only way to play competitive SMs. In fact, they have a few key weaknesses against certain lists in the meta that hurt them competitively. For one, flyrants eat bikes, since bikes are crap against FMCs and the flyrants will drown them in bullets with impunity. They have a few other bad matchups as well. Now, they're still good, there was a bike list in the top 8 at LVO, but they're not the only way to run SM.

Ah yes, the one with the Centurion star. Scouts had nothing to do with that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Seriously? A SM scout list just came in second at one of the biggest, most competitive 40k tournaments ever. A second centurion/gk list was in the top 8. Many of the top tournament players around the world do very well with non bike SM armies. Bikes are great, but they are absolutely not the only way to play competitive SMs. In fact, they have a few key weaknesses against certain lists in the meta that hurt them competitively. For one, flyrants eat bikes, since bikes are crap against FMCs and the flyrants will drown them in bullets with impunity. They have a few other bad matchups as well. Now, they're still good, there was a bike list in the top 8 at LVO, but they're not the only way to run SM.

Ah yes, the one with the Centurion star. Scouts had nothing to do with that.

Except be low priority targets that pretty much do everything that wins the game...

Centurions only have a 30" threat bubble and can only hit two targets, and that's halving the strength they can put into either one. Devastators and the Command Squad took out hard targets but again, that's only half the game of 40k. Infantry and Objectives were both owned by Close Range Bolter Drill and Infiltrate.

The thing that bikes can do so amazingly is that they can zoom around and take objectives or plug holes in the table. Scouts don't need to move. They're deployed ON the spot they need to be and the closer something gets, especially something squishy, the more it dies to pseudo-Twin Linked Bolters. Everything else either dies to an Alpha Strike or is picked off by Tank Hunter Devs. I don't know about you, but that scream Take All Comers to me in what Competitive builds look like they need to be turning into.

I recently enjoyed losing to an 1850 MSU Blood Angels Drop Pod list with Sentinels of Terra (2 small units of Centurions) allies. It had something like 23 scoring units (Tac Squaded) all together. I actually enjoyed the game because it didn't feature a death star of any kind, just a bajillion dudes in power armor. With Heavy Flamers, Melta Guns, Bolters and Grav-Amp Centurions, he has answers for just about everything.

How the Centurian Star Works -
Draigo - Automatic Gate to Infinity
Lvl 3 Librarian - go invisibility

Put homing beacons on your bike Sgt's / scout happy Sgt's

Gate to infinity the centurian / draigo ball to within 12" of a homing beacon without requiring a scatter...

So you essentially have a threat radius of 54" around any homing beacons on the table, plus 30" threat radius of where your unit is sitting at to begin with.

Repeat.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Seriously? A SM scout list just came in second at one of the biggest, most competitive 40k tournaments ever. A second centurion/gk list was in the top 8. Many of the top tournament players around the world do very well with non bike SM armies. Bikes are great, but they are absolutely not the only way to play competitive SMs. In fact, they have a few key weaknesses against certain lists in the meta that hurt them competitively. For one, flyrants eat bikes, since bikes are crap against FMCs and the flyrants will drown them in bullets with impunity. They have a few other bad matchups as well. Now, they're still good, there was a bike list in the top 8 at LVO, but they're not the only way to run SM.

Ah yes, the one with the Centurion star. Scouts had nothing to do with that.

Darkwynn's list didn't have a centurion star in it. He had a single unit of three grav centurions. No Draigo. No Tigirius. He'd normally start Mephiston in the pod with the centurions but it's a real stretch to describe it as a centstar without any of the associated buffs being present. The army worked well because he had lots of OBSEC and great supporting units.

But never mind facts and stuff, scouts aren't meta so they suck /sarcasm

Thankfully for the meta bikes are not the only way to be competitive in the metas, and with some of these TAC lists doing great with maelstrom missions I'm looking forward to a decline in deathstars.

People who think bikes or centstars are the only way are very narrow minded. SM has been having a good run since their new codex, them and the rest of the SM variant armies (except DA...poor test tube babies )

Darkwynn's list is amazing and deceptively powerful. MSU obsec marines of most any variety is going to be a strong foundation whether bikes, pod marines or even.. scouts.

Mudhen wrote:
I've been seeing a lot of people lately saying that SM armies are only good if they're bike armies and that lists based off of tactical marines and ground forces aren't cutting it in 7th ed. Is there any truth to this, or is it mostly just people fear mongering?

No it is not true, longer answer, Bike based armies are very strong, but so are Pod armies, and a few others.

Rhino rush isn't bad either.

Rhino Rush VS Pod armies. Both are objective secured transports. Rhino's are mobile cover. Pods are open topped. both have storm bolters. If you can deep strike pods onto objectives ... life is good.

marinecorpstim wrote:
Rhino Rush VS Pod armies. Both are objective secured transports. Rhino's are mobile cover. Pods are open topped. both have storm bolters. If you can deep strike pods onto objectives ... life is good.

Word. I don't play SM, I play Nids, and I often place my gribblies so you have to choose between an Alpha strike, or grabbing Objectives. I won't let you do both. Rhinos can't Alpha near as well, but they can move around.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Speaking of the LVO, where can you find the top lists? A sentinels of terra/blood angels list came in 2nd, with another BA+knight list in the top 16 i think.

The top 8 lists are on the Blood Of Kittens site, there is a link to it in the LVO thread

There are lots of lists to use, but the number of chapter tactics you will see in high places in ranked competitions are usually quite few.

Most lists favour whitescars or ultramarines, with ironhands in there usually as allies.

White scar does bikes and rhino spam the best (hit and run + khan).
Ultramarines does drop pods (with calgar) and gravstar (with tiggy).
Ironhands just makes in incredibly tough chaptermaster on a bike, but more durable vehicles can be useful too.

I'd say these are the most competitive builds, which each have strengths and weaknesses.

Imperial Fist Devastators wreck things. And their Bolter Drill isn't bad either.

No, there are also Drop Pods.