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The wall of death lets you fire flame throwers on overwatch, does not say it ignores snap shots, just "even though they cannot snap fire"

Invisibility says you can only snapfire shots against invisible units.

Snapfire specifies that shooting attacks that auto hit cannot be used on snap fire.

So the core question does it override both snapshot requirements or only one? If it does override only 1 then can you even use the flamer on overwatch when firing at an invisible target?

Wall of Death isn't a snap shot. It's a special attack that you're allowed to make with template weapons at a specific time when you would normally only be able to fire snap shots.

It does nothing to over ride the Invisibility restriction to only fire snap shots.

So no, you can't fire wall of death shots at Invisible targets, although IMO you should be able to.

I'll completely disagree.

Fired as overwatch, when you can only snapfire.
Invisibility, you can only snapfire.
I charge, causing overwatch attack.
Therefore I fire wall of death as per the rules, at a time and target that I can only snapfire at.

Invisibility is broken enough. It doesn't need more help.

Wall of Death isn't a snap shot. It's a special attack that you're allowed to make with template weapons at a specific time when you would normally only be able to fire snap shots.

Invisibility forces you to snap shoot, but you are already snap shooting when firing Overwatch.

So you just follow the rules for Wall of Death.
Same if you regroup: "However, it can shoot (including Overwatch), but counts as having moved and can only fire Snap Shots."

You can still use Wall of Death after your Unit has regrouped (and is forced to snap shoot).

Old thread on this:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/613794.page

Will this one also beat 13 pages?

Same question as can WoD hit Deathleaper?

Rules in question

Snap shots

Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special
rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

WoD

Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead,
if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging
unit,

The answer I gave for DL

Wall of death over rides the overwatch restriction for having to snapshot.
It does not however over ride DL restrictions for snap shots as it is still not defined as a snap shot.

So no, to WoD it has to conflict with DLs rules, as it doesn't you can not use it against him.

You go to fire overwatch.
You can't fire snap shots but you can WoD with flamers.
DL checks if WoD are snapshots
Nope, ends there

There is nothing in the WoD rules which stops DL checking.
This was the thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/601642.page

You didn't mention if the poll was RAW or HIWPI btw.

Edit; I thought this was clear since RAW literally states it is a shooting attack which is not a snap shot. I see in the thread BT linked this is not the case, I'd forgotten that one.

More importantly, in the definitions of Snap Shots:

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots

So, Deathleaper forces you to be BS1 (I don't know his exact wording), Overwatch forces you to be BS1, Invisibility forces you to be BS1.
When following Wall of Death, what does it allow you to do? Fire your weapon although you are BS1 (snap shooting).

So, rather than rolling 6s To Hit, "Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits"

This is because the Unit is not "affected by snap shot Blight", like [Overwatch-type Snap shot] or [Invisibility-type Snap Shot]. A Unit forced to snap shot is simply reduced to BS1 (RaW)
Can models with BS1 fire Template weapons during Overwatch?


ED: Also, to all those who still think Invisibility > WoD, how does Vector Strike affect an invisible Unit? It cannot [snap fire], so what do you do with the "automatic hit" ? (Same auto-Hit provided by WoD)

 BlackTalos wrote:
More importantly, in the definitions of Snap Shots:

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots

So, Deathleaper forces you to be BS1 (I don't know his exact wording), Overwatch forces you to be BS1, Invisibility forces you to be BS1.
When following Wall of Death, what does it allow you to do? Fire your weapon although you are BS1 (snap shooting).

So, rather than rolling 6s To Hit, "Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits"

This is because the Unit is not "affected by snap shot Blight", like [Overwatch-type Snap shot] or [Invisibility-type Snap Shot]. A Unit forced to snap shot is simply reduced to BS1 (RaW)
Can models with BS1 fire Template weapons during Overwatch?


ED: Also, to all those who still think Invisibility > WoD, how does Vector Strike affect an invisible Unit? It cannot [snap fire], so what do you do with the "automatic hit" ? (Same auto-Hit provided by WoD)

We don't have to draw conclusions, I did miss some of the snap shot rules sorry.

In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot

Automatically hit is not using BS . Snap shot excludes anything which is not rolling to hit on a 6 (excluding modifiers which specifically say they effect snap shots) from being able to be called a snap shot. Since at least 6th snap shots have been incredibly 'tight' ruling. The most they ever gave was immoteks lightning was able to hit flyers, and even that required a roll of 6 in the first place.

 Nem wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
More importantly, in the definitions of Snap Shots:

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots

So, Deathleaper forces you to be BS1 (I don't know his exact wording), Overwatch forces you to be BS1, Invisibility forces you to be BS1.
When following Wall of Death, what does it allow you to do? Fire your weapon although you are BS1 (snap shooting).

So, rather than rolling 6s To Hit, "Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits"

This is because the Unit is not "affected by snap shot Blight", like [Overwatch-type Snap shot] or [Invisibility-type Snap Shot]. A Unit forced to snap shot is simply reduced to BS1 (RaW)
Can models with BS1 fire Template weapons during Overwatch?


ED: Also, to all those who still think Invisibility > WoD, how does Vector Strike affect an invisible Unit? It cannot [snap fire], so what do you do with the "automatic hit" ? (Same auto-Hit provided by WoD)

We don't have to draw conclusions, I did miss some of the snap shot rules sorry.

In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot

Automatically hit is not using BS . Snap shot excludes anything which is not rolling to hit on a 6 (excluding modifiers which specifically say they effect snap shots) from being able to be called a snap shot. Since at least 6th snap shots have been incredibly 'tight' ruling. The most they ever gave was immoteks lightning was able to hit flyers, and even that required a roll of 6 in the first place.

Okay, so we have:

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots

and (you cut it short)

Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot

Wall of Death will be covered by "Templates", which, we all know "cannot be fired as Snap Shots"

So Wall of Death cannot be a Snap shot.
What is it then?
How does a Heavy Flamer cause Hits, while specifically not being able to Snap shot ever?

Maybe this could apply:

If a special rule doesn’t specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at Ballistic Skill 1.

Could Wall of death "specifically state that it affects Snap Shots"?

Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit,

What do i read from the WoD, by RaW?

1) Template weapons cannot fire Snap Shots.
2) Template weapons can fire overwatch.
3) If you fire a Template weapon, you auto-Hit D3.

So you've never fired a Snap shot, simply because it is not possible for these weapons to do so. But they inflict Auto-Hits, just like Vector Strike would.
IMO resolving Auto-Hits is quite easy.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would even go as far as giving this RaW as support:

When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit and a roll of a 1 always misses.

If the Template Weapon is not actually rolling To Hit (it also cannot be doing so due to Auto-Hits), why do rules like Invisibility (which "modify" To Hit rolls) even apply?

Does Hammer of Wrath affect Invisible Units?

Because they modify the hit process to state that you cannot snapshot a blast / template weapon, precisely because they do not roll to hit.

Hammer of wrath does, because there is no equivalent to snapshot within the CC rules.

The only argument possible is: is Wall of Death a snapshot? The answer is no - it is instead of firing overwatch snapshot, you run a completely different path. So when asked "did you snapshot at me?" you cannot answer "Yes" with Wall of Death

This idiocy is why I don't play GW games any more

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Nem wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
More importantly, in the definitions of Snap Shots:

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots

So, Deathleaper forces you to be BS1 (I don't know his exact wording), Overwatch forces you to be BS1, Invisibility forces you to be BS1.
When following Wall of Death, what does it allow you to do? Fire your weapon although you are BS1 (snap shooting).

So, rather than rolling 6s To Hit, "Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits"

This is because the Unit is not "affected by snap shot Blight", like [Overwatch-type Snap shot] or [Invisibility-type Snap Shot]. A Unit forced to snap shot is simply reduced to BS1 (RaW)
Can models with BS1 fire Template weapons during Overwatch?


ED: Also, to all those who still think Invisibility > WoD, how does Vector Strike affect an invisible Unit? It cannot [snap fire], so what do you do with the "automatic hit" ? (Same auto-Hit provided by WoD)

We don't have to draw conclusions, I did miss some of the snap shot rules sorry.

In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot

Automatically hit is not using BS . Snap shot excludes anything which is not rolling to hit on a 6 (excluding modifiers which specifically say they effect snap shots) from being able to be called a snap shot. Since at least 6th snap shots have been incredibly 'tight' ruling. The most they ever gave was immoteks lightning was able to hit flyers, and even that required a roll of 6 in the first place.

Okay, so we have:

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots

and (you cut it short)

Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot

Wall of Death will be covered by "Templates", which, we all know "cannot be fired as Snap Shots"

Well, WoD is also covered by it being a shooting attack which does not use BS. It is both of those things.

So Wall of Death cannot be a Snap shot.
What is it then?
How does a Heavy Flamer cause Hits, while specifically not being able to Snap shot ever?

Not sure what you mean here or what the problem is. Relentless counters heavy, also not moving. Whats the point in having a heavy flamer is the heavy part does not have ill effects? The same premise as POTMS overriding one snap shot restriction but not the other. I'm not sure where you stand on that but if you believe the POTMS additional target does not override restrictions such as jinking which uses the same counter argument 'whats the point in it then' and relay it to that its the same (but different) mechanics.

Maybe this could apply:

If a special rule doesn’t specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at Ballistic Skill 1.

Could Wall of death "specifically state that it affects Snap Shots"?

Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit,

We already have wording which effects the BS of a snap shot (Markerlights). These are quite different though, but WoD doesn't use BS in the first place making it difficult for it to specifically state it effects the BS of the shot, which would be '+1BS can be used on snapshots' or something similar, Instead WoD states since the template can not snap shot, instead during over watch (where normally, you can only snapshot) you can use the WoD rule to inflict D3 hits. This is not a snap shot though, this is a over watch exception so flamers are not useless. It does not account for rules on DL, or invisibility, only the restrictions laid down in the over watch rules, as it what it was meant to overcome.

What do i read from the WoD, by RaW?

1) Template weapons cannot fire Snap Shots.
2) Template weapons can fire overwatch.
3) If you fire a Template weapon, you auto-Hit D3.

So you've never fired a Snap shot, simply because it is not possible for these weapons to do so. But they inflict Auto-Hits, just like Vector Strike would.
IMO resolving Auto-Hits is quite easy.

No its not possible, and when firing at invis units you can ONLY fire snap shots. If your not given the opportunity to fire on BS that's does not mean you have overcome the restriction - why would it?

Vector strike is not firing a weapon, a weapon special rule or anything to do with such, it's a completely different concept and does not cause conflict with Invisibility as it never 'fired' vector strike at it. It's much like... Err... that Jetbike attack... When flying over... At some point it was decided (mostly) can not take cover saves as it's not a shooting attack. I have some reservation about that, but attacks which are not obviously shooting or CC attacks are a little bit in a world of their own and I'm not sure which rules from either are or are not suppose to apply. I don't believe WoD is like that, it's a form of firing the weapon and works like other weapon SR's (This format is more commonly seen on CC weapons though)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would even go as far as giving this RaW as support:

When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit and a roll of a 1 always misses.

If the Template Weapon is not actually rolling To Hit (it also cannot be doing so due to Auto-Hits), why do rules like Invisibility (which "modify" To Hit rolls) even apply?

Does Hammer of Wrath affect Invisible Units?

 Nem wrote:
[

So Wall of Death cannot be a Snap shot.
What is it then?
How does a Heavy Flamer cause Hits, while specifically not being able to Snap shot ever?

Not sure what you mean here or what the problem is. Relentless counters heavy, also not moving. Whats the point in having a heavy flamer is the heavy part does not have ill effects?

Heavy Flamers don't have the Heavy rule - they're Assault.
So Relentless is irrelevant.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
[

So Wall of Death cannot be a Snap shot.
What is it then?
How does a Heavy Flamer cause Hits, while specifically not being able to Snap shot ever?

Not sure what you mean here or what the problem is. Relentless counters heavy, also not moving. Whats the point in having a heavy flamer is the heavy part does not have ill effects?

Heavy Flamers don't have the Heavy rule - they're Assault.
So Relentless is irrelevant.

I don't play with them so a little unsure of the context around that question

Just cause you're invisible shouldn't mean you're immune to being roasted alive with for instance, a big doomy flame thrower.

From the quotes people are using from the rule book and from my basic English skills, Wall of Death will hit an invisible unit that charges.

So we already know that Flamer weapons do not 'snap fire' in the traditional manner. In fact, they don't even SHOOT in the normal manner either, as they do not even need to roll to hit and thus ignore Ballistic Skill altogether in that aspect. They are special weapons among special weapons.

So with Overwatch, we know we fire Snap Shots. We also know that Invisible units can only be shot at as Snap Shots on a normal basis anyway.

What this equates too is that Flamers/Templates cannot actually fire at the Invisible unit on a normal basis, if the Invisible rule actually states you can only fire Snap Shots at them. But when it comes to Overwatch, that's a different story.

Flamers have Wall of Death, as we all know. Which isn't resolved using normal Overwatch/Shooting rules. Each Flamer/template gets D3 automatic hits, which does hit Invisible units. Why wouldn't it? The Invisible spell does not prevent this, and the Flamer/template is not breaking the restriction. It isn't a snap shot. It's a special rule for Overwatching.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Just cause you're invisible shouldn't mean you're immune to being roasted alive with for instance, a big doomy flame thrower.

Well, if you want to apply it that way, WoD is preparation for a unit charging at you, amidst the chaos of battle you not likely to drop your bolters and be able to organize a flame wall in time for a enemy you didn't see coming.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Just cause you're invisible shouldn't mean you're immune to being roasted alive with for instance, a big doomy flame thrower.

Honestly being invisible should allow you to be roasted anyways because how else is someone going to flush you out? Same for blast weapons (just make them scatter the full 2D6 or something and we're good in my book).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nem wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Just cause you're invisible shouldn't mean you're immune to being roasted alive with for instance, a big doomy flame thrower.

Well, if you want to apply it that way, WoD is preparation for a unit charging at you, amidst the chaos of battle you not likely to drop your bolters and be able to organize a flame wall in time for a enemy you didn't see coming.

The person carrying the flamer is the one who makes the big wall of death, not the entire squad. And by your logic then they shouldn't get to snap fire bolters at the invisible enemy either.

Melevolence wrote:
From the quotes people are using from the rule book and from my basic English skills, Wall of Death will hit an invisible unit that charges.

So we already know that Flamer weapons do not 'snap fire' in the traditional manner. In fact, they don't even SHOOT in the normal manner either, as they do not even need to roll to hit and thus ignore Ballistic Skill altogether in that aspect. They are special weapons among special weapons.

So with Overwatch, we know we fire Snap Shots. We also know that Invisible units can only be shot at as Snap Shots on a normal basis anyway.

What this equates too is that Flamers/Templates cannot actually fire at the Invisible unit on a normal basis, if the Invisible rule actually states you can only fire Snap Shots at them. But when it comes to Overwatch, that's a different story.

Flamers have Wall of Death, as we all know. Which isn't resolved using normal Overwatch/Shooting rules. Each Flamer/template gets D3 automatic hits, which does hit Invisible units. Why wouldn't it? The Invisible spell does not prevent this, and the Flamer/template is not breaking the restriction. It isn't a snap shot. It's a special rule for Overwatching.

"In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot"

If it wasn't fired as a Snap Shot, can it hit an invisible unit?
"Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit"

Since we've established that WoD is not, in fact, a Snap Shot it cannot be fired at an Invisible unit - because Invisibility requires that all shots fired be Snap Shots.

Melevolence wrote:

Flamers have Wall of Death, as we all know. Which isn't resolved using normal Overwatch/Shooting rules. Each Flamer/template gets D3 automatic hits, which does hit Invisible units. Why wouldn't it? The Invisible spell does not prevent this, and the Flamer/template is not breaking the restriction. It isn't a snap shot. It's a special rule for Overwatching.

Invisibility prevents anything being fired which is not a snapshot ( WoD included) . Wod is allowed to be fired in Overwatch, that doesn't mean it's allowed to be fired against invisibility. Invisibility and overwatch are two separate rules, because your allowed to override one does not automatically mean you can override the other.

Edit; ability names mix up.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Just cause you're invisible shouldn't mean you're immune to being roasted alive with for instance, a big doomy flame thrower.

Honestly being invisible should allow you to be roasted anyways because how else is someone going to flush you out? Same for blast weapons (just make them scatter the full 2D6 or something and we're good in my book).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nem wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Just cause you're invisible shouldn't mean you're immune to being roasted alive with for instance, a big doomy flame thrower.

Well, if you want to apply it that way, WoD is preparation for a unit charging at you, amidst the chaos of battle you not likely to drop your bolters and be able to organize a flame wall in time for a enemy you didn't see coming.

The person carrying the flamer is the one who makes the big wall of death, not the entire squad. And by your logic then they shouldn't get to snap fire bolters at the invisible enemy either.

Well its all trying to rationalize real world circumstances which gets a bit dodgy as war isn't linear. I actually imagined a 'wall of death' being made up of multiple people, but we don't have rules for it being more effective if the model fire from the side rather than one guy in the middle going backwards and forwards with his thrower rotation. Maybe they realize their presence while quite close? Maybe they don't and never get to snap fire anything, which can happen in real life - but the point is it is not a case of immune to fire while invisible therefore logically WoD hits. Plenty of places in the rules this could happen or that could happen IRL, but we only have one set of rules (and some dice rolls for random factors).

rigeld2 wrote:

Melevolence wrote:
From the quotes people are using from the rule book and from my basic English skills, Wall of Death will hit an invisible unit that charges.

So we already know that Flamer weapons do not 'snap fire' in the traditional manner. In fact, they don't even SHOOT in the normal manner either, as they do not even need to roll to hit and thus ignore Ballistic Skill altogether in that aspect. They are special weapons among special weapons.

So with Overwatch, we know we fire Snap Shots. We also know that Invisible units can only be shot at as Snap Shots on a normal basis anyway.

What this equates too is that Flamers/Templates cannot actually fire at the Invisible unit on a normal basis, if the Invisible rule actually states you can only fire Snap Shots at them. But when it comes to Overwatch, that's a different story.

Flamers have Wall of Death, as we all know. Which isn't resolved using normal Overwatch/Shooting rules. Each Flamer/template gets D3 automatic hits, which does hit Invisible units. Why wouldn't it? The Invisible spell does not prevent this, and the Flamer/template is not breaking the restriction. It isn't a snap shot. It's a special rule for Overwatching.

"In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot"

If it wasn't fired as a Snap Shot, can it hit an invisible unit?
"Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit"

Since we've established that WoD is not, in fact, a Snap Shot it cannot be fired at an Invisible unit - because Invisibility requires that all shots fired be Snap Shots.

Which a Flamer can not do. Which is why during Overwatch, it uses WoD instead, which grants D3 hits instead of firing traditional Overwatch.

With the wording for Invisibility, if that is word for word correct, RAW, it's still a toss up. It's how one wants to rule lawyer it.

As this is a 'You Make Da Call', my call is Yes. You can WoD Invisible units.

And if people want to get 'logical' about how one readies an attack for an Invisible unit, charging is NOT a quiet action. You're running, stomping, and depending on the faction, you're shouting. You'll make noise. People will fire in your direction and are bound to hit something.

Melevolence wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
"In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot"

If it wasn't fired as a Snap Shot, can it hit an invisible unit?
"Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit"

Since we've established that WoD is not, in fact, a Snap Shot it cannot be fired at an Invisible unit - because Invisibility requires that all shots fired be Snap Shots.

Which a Flamer can not do. Which is why during Overwatch, it uses WoD instead, which grants D3 hits instead of firing traditional Overwatch.

With the wording for Invisibility, if that is word for word correct, RAW, it's still a toss up. It's how one wants to rule lawyer it.

WoD also cannot be fired as a snap shot. Agreed? Since only Snap Shots can be fired at the target unit, and WoD cannot (per the rules) be fired as a Snap Shot, it cannot be fired at the target unit.
And yes, it's word for word correct - that's why I put quotes around it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because they modify the hit process to state that you cannot snapshot a blast / template weapon, precisely because they do not roll to hit.

Hammer of wrath does, because there is no equivalent to snapshot within the CC rules.

The only argument possible is: is Wall of Death a snapshot? The answer is no - it is instead of firing overwatch snapshot, you run a completely different path. So when asked "did you snapshot at me?" you cannot answer "Yes" with Wall of Death

rigeld2 wrote:
Since we've established that WoD is not, in fact, a Snap Shot it cannot be fired at an Invisible unit - because Invisibility requires that all shots fired be Snap Shots.

I quote Overwatch:

Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots. Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch.

So when asked "did you snapshot at me?" you cannot answer "Yes" with Wall of Death.

Therefore Wall of Death cannot fire Overwatch. Unless of course, you actually follow the WoD rule:
"Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit"

How would you resolve automatic hits on an Invisible Unit?
Say i trace a "Molten Beam" or "Infernal Gaze" through the invisible Unit. It is arguably "Fired" as a Witchfire. But a Beam is not a Snap Shot, does a Beam have no effect on Invisible Units?



Secondly, the CC rules are exactly the same:

and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6

How does Hammer of Wrath roll a 6?

Hammer of wrath cannot roll a 6, WoD cannot snap fire. Hammer of Wrath Auto-Hits, WoD Auto-Hits.
Consistency:
A) Both Auto-Hits are ignore because the restrictions (Snap Fire, 6 ) are not met.
B) Both simply resolve the Hits that have been generated Automatically.

Pick A or B. Then the discussion will continue.

ED: Hammer of Wrath and WoD are at exactly the same level in Basic v Advanced, and the 2 phrases in "Invisibility" are synonymous in Shooting and CC (word "only")

rigeld2 wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
"In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot"

If it wasn't fired as a Snap Shot, can it hit an invisible unit?
"Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit"

Since we've established that WoD is not, in fact, a Snap Shot it cannot be fired at an Invisible unit - because Invisibility requires that all shots fired be Snap Shots.

Which a Flamer can not do. Which is why during Overwatch, it uses WoD instead, which grants D3 hits instead of firing traditional Overwatch.

With the wording for Invisibility, if that is word for word correct, RAW, it's still a toss up. It's how one wants to rule lawyer it.

WoD also cannot be fired as a snap shot. Agreed? Since only Snap Shots can be fired at the target unit, and WoD cannot (per the rules) be fired as a Snap Shot, it cannot be fired at the target unit.
And yes, it's word for word correct - that's why I put quotes around it.

I'm thinking you're mistaking a few things. I'm not saying Flamers can target an Invisible unit for a normal shooting attack. What I AM saying, is that WoD can be used if the Invisi unit declares a charge. Overwatch works differently than a standard shooting attack during the shooting phase. Invisi does not protect from WoD. It protects from normal shooting attacks, not Overwatch triggered attacks/effects.

 BlackTalos wrote:
How would you resolve automatic hits on an Invisible Unit?
Say i trace a "Molten Beam" or "Infernal Gaze" through the invisible Unit. It is arguably "Fired" as a Witchfire. But a Beam is not a Snap Shot, does a Beam have no effect on Invisible Units?

No - it has an effect. You're conflating hitting and firing/targeting. You shouldn't.

WoD cannot be fired at an Invisible unit because it cannot ever be a Snap Shot.
Molten Beam is not fired at an Invisible unit. Neither is Infernal Gaze.

"firing" and "firing at" are different things. Beams target a point on the table and therefore are never fired at an invisible unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melevolence wrote:
What I AM saying, is that WoD can be used if the Invisi unit declares a charge.

So what you're saying is that WoD - something that cannot ever be fired as a Snap Shot - can fire at a unit that can only ever be fired at by snap shots?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Secondly, the CC rules are exactly the same:

No, they're not.
There is no concept of Snap Shot in CC. There is no rule saying that attacks that don't use WS cannot be used in CC.

They're not even close to the same thing - please don't attempt this straw man argument any more. It requires you to make up rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
How would you resolve automatic hits on an Invisible Unit?
Say i trace a "Molten Beam" or "Infernal Gaze" through the invisible Unit. It is arguably "Fired" as a Witchfire. But a Beam is not a Snap Shot, does a Beam have no effect on Invisible Units?

No - it has an effect. You're conflating hitting and firing/targeting. You shouldn't.

WoD cannot be fired at an Invisible unit because it cannot ever be a Snap Shot.
Molten Beam is not fired at an Invisible unit. Neither is Infernal Gaze.

"firing" and "firing at" are different things. Beams target a point on the table and therefore are never fired at an invisible unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melevolence wrote:
What I AM saying, is that WoD can be used if the Invisi unit declares a charge.

So what you're saying is that WoD - something that cannot ever be fired as a Snap Shot - can fire at a unit that can only ever be fired at by snap shots?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Secondly, the CC rules are exactly the same:

No, they're not.
There is no concept of Snap Shot in CC. There is no rule saying that attacks that don't use WS cannot be used in CC.

They're not even close to the same thing - please don't attempt this straw man argument any more. It requires you to make up rules.

WoD is not something you can choose to use on a normal basis. I think you need to read how Flamer weapons work again. Flamers, by nature, cannot fire snapshots and resolve Overwatch in a different manner to compensate as well as be more 'flavorful'. They INSTEAD use WoD, which is not a traditional shooting attack. It can only be used in an instance where they WOULD fire snapshots, but are not able too. Which is during Overwatch.

Edit:

In the end, as the rules stand for WoD and Invisibility, this is all a total rule lawyer situation, and you have to all make your personal calls on the matter. Until GW FAQ's this, the rules are too ambiguous for even RAW.

Melevolence wrote:
WoD is not something you can choose to use on a normal basis. I think you need to read how Flamer weapons work again. Flamers, by nature, cannot fire snapshots and resolve Overwatch in a different manner to compensate as well as be more 'flavorful'. They INSTEAD use WoD, which is not a traditional shooting attack. It can only be used in an instance where they WOULD fire snapshots, but are not able too. Which is during Overwatch.

Absolutely correct. I'm not arguing that.

Do you agree that WoD cannot ever be fired as a Snap Shot? Yes or no.

So many things wrong with this argument...

As has been said several times, wall of death is not a shooting attack. It is a special ability activated during overwatch. Read the rule. Nowhere in Wall of Death pg 173 does it say "this is a shooting attack" it doesn't even say"instead of" it says even though they cannot fire overwatch it automatically inflicts d3 wounds in the unit.

Overwatch is a sorting attack. These weapons cannot fire overwatch. Instead they use a special rule.

Your argument that invisible units cannot be snap shot at assumed wod is a shooting attack. Which it is not. It is the activation of a special rule. Very simple. You're trying to convince people a special rules is a shooting attack, it is not. Stop trying to make a broken spell more broken than the rules support by claiming it strips additional rules that are not even the attack type you are arguing against.

And off the rules lawyering block for a moment, if i can shoot a bolter at you I should damn well be able to burn you alive. The stupidity of flamers not working on invisibility normally makes my brain hurt. But that statement isn't backed up by raw and I have no evidence in the rule book to support that my brain hurts when I think about it, so I'm assuming someone it's going to refute my headaches with a raw rule.

FratHammer wrote:
it doesn't even say"instead of"

It doesn't?

Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit,

Oh. It does.

Your argument that invisible units cannot be snap shot at assumed wod is a shooting attack. Which it is not.

It's not?

if a Template weapon fires Overwatch,

So it's not a shooting attack, but it fires Overwatch which is a shooting attack, but it's totally not.
In addition - what rules do we use for wound allocation?

It is the activation of a special rule. Very simple. You're trying to convince people a special rules is a shooting attack, it is not. Stop trying to make a broken spell more broken than the rules support by claiming it strips additional rules that are not even the attack type you are arguing against.

How about you use the actual rules in your argument? I know I have.

And off the rules lawyering block for a moment, if i can shoot a bolter at you I should damn well be able to burn you alive. The stupidity of flamers not working on invisibility normally makes my brain hurt. But that statement isn't backed up by raw and I have no evidence in the rule book to support that my brain hurts when I think about it, so I'm assuming someone it's going to refute my headaches with a raw rule.

Fluff != rules. Have fun with your headache.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
How would you resolve automatic hits on an Invisible Unit?
Say i trace a "Molten Beam" or "Infernal Gaze" through the invisible Unit. It is arguably "Fired" as a Witchfire. But a Beam is not a Snap Shot, does a Beam have no effect on Invisible Units?

No - it has an effect. You're conflating hitting and firing/targeting. You shouldn't.

WoD cannot be fired at an Invisible unit because it cannot ever be a Snap Shot.
Molten Beam is not fired at an Invisible unit. Neither is Infernal Gaze.

"firing" and "firing at" are different things. Beams target a point on the table and therefore are never fired at an invisible unit.

WoD does not "fire at", it "automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit".

Molten Beam inflict Auto-Hits on the Unit, WoD inflicts Auto-Hits on the Unit.
They both auto-hit instead of rolling To Hit. Why does snap firing restrict 1 and not the other?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Secondly, the CC rules are exactly the same:

No, they're not.
There is no concept of Snap Shot in CC. There is no rule saying that attacks that don't use WS cannot be used in CC.

They're not even close to the same thing - please don't attempt this straw man argument any more. It requires you to make up rules.

It is not a straw man argument, its Invisibility RaW:

A) enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit
B) in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

Restrictions:
Snap Fire only
To Hit of 6 only

HoW Auto-Hits
WoD Auto-Hits

Consistency requires you resolve both cases in the same way.

It seems like this whole thread is being overthought a little. It's simple. WoD says that a flamer can fire overwatch, even though it can't fire snap shots, and does d3 hits. So, can you use WoD on an invisible unit?

Are you firing overwatch? Then, yes.

There is nothing ambiguous about the rule. People are getting too caught up on what the nature of the snap shot is. A flamer can fire overwatch even though it can't fire snap shots. Nowhere in the rules does it give any impression that the source of the Snap Shot rule is relevant. It just says you can fire Overwatch, even though you can't usually snap shoot.