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I just got the Vraks book and while I think quad launchers look as though they should be pretty darn awesome, I'm beginning to think that its got a redundant and completely useless rule. Shell shock gives minus one to pinning from the quad launcher, artillery no longer has pinning. What is your opinions?

Also, think I should bother with getting quad launchers or mortars at all when theres still Wyverns out there?

It's another case of nobody at GW knowing what the rules to 40k are. RAW it doesn't work unless you find a way to give the weapon pinning. A reasonable house rule would be that it has pinning and forces the -1 penalty, but that's something you'll have to negotiate with your opponents.

As for whether they're good, not really. They used to be awesome, but then GW decided to create the Wyvern and give it an even better weapon. They're only really useful if you have a DKoK army that gets quad guns but not Wyverns.

Shoot them with sniper rifles in the same round?

 Peregrine wrote:
It's another case of nobody at GW knowing what the rules to 40k are. RAW it doesn't work unless you find a way to give the weapon pinning. A reasonable house rule would be that it has pinning and forces the -1 penalty, but that's something you'll have to negotiate with your opponents.

As for whether they're good, not really. They used to be awesome, but then GW decided to create the Wyvern and give it an even better weapon. They're only really useful if you have a DKoK army that gets quad guns but not Wyverns.

I emailed forgeworld, might get a reply, who knows?

What is your opinion on heavy mortars? Kromlech makes a very sweet Heavy Mortar model and the euro is almost 1:1 right now.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
What is your opinion on heavy mortars? Kromlech makes a very sweet Heavy Mortar model and the euro is almost 1:1 right now.

Never worth it. The quad guns are better against everything but vehicles, and the heavy mortar sucks against vehicles so its "advantage" there is mostly theoretical. Of course the Wyvern is better than either, but if you have to choose an artillery unit take the quad guns.

 sudojoe wrote:
Shoot them with sniper rifles in the same round?

Snipers actually aren't pinning these days.

The Heavy Quad Launchers have pinning in Imperial Armour 13, which suggests that they were meant to have it in Siege of Vraks, but Forgeworld either changed their minds or (most likely) simply copy-pasted the rules, forgetting about it.

There is some merit in using the Heavy Mortar when playing the Assault Brigade due to them having the option to use Carcass Shells, but in the Siege Regiment list Quad Launchers are definitely superior.

Is there anything left in the game that actually does cause Pinning?

Mortars?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Is there anything left in the game that actually does cause Pinning?

Blastmasters

 Otto Weston wrote:
Mortars?

Regular imperial guard mortars don't cause pinning, unless the firers have been given a special order.

Mallich wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Mortars?

Regular imperial guard mortars don't cause pinning, unless the firers have been given a special order.

Plus you can still buy the Imperial Armour 1 versions (which are virtually identical anyways) and give quad launchers the pinning order as well.

I am less convinced about the superiority of any of wyvern over the thudd gun and heavy mortar. Without considering armour saves, model size, and durability the wyvern would be hands down the best option. However these factors should all be assessed.

The case for wyverns;
+Perhaps the single best anti infantry weapon in the game.
+No support elements needed. Fearless, TL, ignore cover, and shred all without any support.
+AV12 out of LoS usually survives 2-3 turns on most boards
+Can move. This can be a major deal if you need a unit to grab an objective end of game.
-AV10 side armour means that most barrage weapons can eliminate a wyvern or two with ease
-Chimera models are somewhat bulky and thus if you want to take a lot of them they are hard to hide
-Wyverns that are in LoS will almost assuredly die
Summary: If you are not taking IG morale and support elements already and you want a unit or two of exceptional anti infantry artillery in a codex IG CAD or Allies detachment then this is definitely your unit.

The case for field artillery units;
+Toughness 7 unit. Even if this is in LoS this unit will stand up to most firepower fairly well.
+Small model sizes. This means it is exceptionally easy to either hide the models or have very good cover.
+Can accept orders. Thus if you need ignore cover, monster hunter, tank hunter, etc. you can get it. GtG in some ruins when someone starts shooting at the unit and then get back into the fight so they can shoot.
+Properly supported artillery units are pretty much the last thing to die. Unless you mess up or sacrifice them in a ploy then you will get the full game of shooting.
-Needs support units. The worst being the absolute need for morale control to keep the unit from fleeing. This is not as true for DKoK units.
-Immobile.
-A bit less survivable in melee.

Thudd Guns specific;
+Against T3 5+ save infantry the wyvern and thudd guns do ~3.5 unsaved wounds (per wyvern) vs 3.3 unsaved wounds (per thudd gun). This slight difference stays that way for pretty much all the Sv5+ units. The important units with 5+ saves are; lictors, venomthropes, imperial guard (like thudd gun crew), inquisition henchmen, most of the DE units, CWE guardians.
+An amusing use for orders is to give tank hunters on a unit of 3 thudd guns will average a 2 dead wyverns in a single shooting phase. In return the wyverns kill 2-3 guardsmen from the thudd gun unit. Mostly just amusing but every now and then it can be useful.

Summary: Thudd guns are slightly cheaper than wyverns. If you are already taking Yarrick to stick in an IG gun line or you are DKoK thus have the morale troubles fixed then thudd guns are a more durable alternative. You trade some damage for a little boost in flexibility and a huge boost in durability.

Heavy Mortars specific;
+AP4 and S6; these two factors give these units a strange damage profile. Against the majority of infantry and units the wyvern and thudd guns do more damage. Even against most T3 Sv4+ units the wyvern still does a bit more damage. However against T3 2 wound models and T4 Sv4+ the heavy mortar has a noticeable damage boost. Some of the ideal targets for these are; SM scouts, eavy armour orks, necron warriors, ripper swarms, death riders, renegades and heretics heavy weapon teams, DKoK engineer heavy flamer teams, eldar characters, etc. Necron warriors and SM scouts are actually an incredibly important demographic in competitive 40K so there is some worth to this.

Summary: Heavy Mortars are very similar to thudd guns just with a great deal less flexibility in their target profiles. Thudd guns are almost always better but I have found that every now and then the heavy mortars are really worthwhile.

 ansacs wrote:
I am less convinced about the superiority of any of wyvern over the thudd gun and heavy mortar. Without considering armour saves, model size, and durability the wyvern would be hands down the best option. However these factors should all be assessed.

The case for wyverns;
+Perhaps the single best anti infantry weapon in the game.
+No support elements needed. Fearless, TL, ignore cover, and shred all without any support.
+AV12 out of LoS usually survives 2-3 turns on most boards
+Can move. This can be a major deal if you need a unit to grab an objective end of game.
-AV10 side armour means that most barrage weapons can eliminate a wyvern or two with ease
-Chimera models are somewhat bulky and thus if you want to take a lot of them they are hard to hide
-Wyverns that are in LoS will almost assuredly die
Summary: If you are not taking IG morale and support elements already and you want a unit or two of exceptional anti infantry artillery in a codex IG CAD or Allies detachment then this is definitely your unit.

The case for field artillery units;
+Toughness 7 unit. Even if this is in LoS this unit will stand up to most firepower fairly well.
+Small model sizes. This means it is exceptionally easy to either hide the models or have very good cover.
+Can accept orders. Thus if you need ignore cover, monster hunter, tank hunter, etc. you can get it. GtG in some ruins when someone starts shooting at the unit and then get back into the fight so they can shoot.
+Properly supported artillery units are pretty much the last thing to die. Unless you mess up or sacrifice them in a ploy then you will get the full game of shooting.
-Needs support units. The worst being the absolute need for morale control to keep the unit from fleeing. This is not as true for DKoK units.
-Immobile.
-A bit less survivable in melee.

Thudd Guns specific;
+Against T3 5+ save infantry the wyvern and thudd guns do ~3.5 unsaved wounds (per wyvern) vs 3.3 unsaved wounds (per thudd gun). This slight difference stays that way for pretty much all the Sv5+ units. The important units with 5+ saves are; lictors, venomthropes, imperial guard (like thudd gun crew), inquisition henchmen, most of the DE units, CWE guardians.
+An amusing use for orders is to give tank hunters on a unit of 3 thudd guns will average a 2 dead wyverns in a single shooting phase. In return the wyverns kill 2-3 guardsmen from the thudd gun unit. Mostly just amusing but every now and then it can be useful.

Summary: Thudd guns are slightly cheaper than wyverns. If you are already taking Yarrick to stick in an IG gun line or you are DKoK thus have the morale troubles fixed then thudd guns are a more durable alternative. You trade some damage for a little boost in flexibility and a huge boost in durability.

Heavy Mortars specific;
+AP4 and S6; these two factors give these units a strange damage profile. Against the majority of infantry and units the wyvern and thudd guns do more damage. Even against most T3 Sv4+ units the wyvern still does a bit more damage. However against T3 2 wound models and T4 Sv4+ the heavy mortar has a noticeable damage boost. Some of the ideal targets for these are; SM scouts, eavy armour orks, necron warriors, ripper swarms, death riders, renegades and heretics heavy weapon teams, DKoK engineer heavy flamer teams, eldar characters, etc. Necron warriors and SM scouts are actually an incredibly important demographic in competitive 40K so there is some worth to this.

Summary: Heavy Mortars are very similar to thudd guns just with a great deal less flexibility in their target profiles. Thudd guns are almost always better but I have found that every now and then the heavy mortars are really worthwhile.

Thanks! I've always liked the idea of artillery and this gives me a push to try them out, and maybe buy those nice Kromlech Heavy Mortar models (they are actually quite nice and reasonably affordable). Ive thought about taking DKoK allies in my AM list and using them to get access to cheap conquerers and elite artillery, and use a Commissar General for the HQ and stick him in the artillery for an order LD boost and then wrap them in a lascannon platoon. Probably use wyverns too, you can never have too much artillery.

Hang on. arent quad launchers barrage weapons?

IIRC under barrage they have pinning.

Remember that DKoK Artillery synergises less with artillery as they don't have access to the normal AM orders, so you won't have any cover ignoring or monster/tank hunting Thudd Guns that way. Instead, they still have the old Bring it Down!, but that should be used on Heavy Artillery. They are tougher though with Dig In and the Krieg special rules.

 Desubot wrote:
Hang on. arent quad launchers barrage weapons?

IIRC under barrage they have pinning.

Not anymore, they removed Pinning from Barrage. 'Tis a shame I say, I liked shelling my opponent to oblivion.

 Desubot wrote:
Hang on. arent quad launchers barrage weapons?
IIRC under barrage they have pinning.

Nope. The fluff attached to the pinning rules does mention how barrage weapons would pin units, but the rules don't back that up. Barrage weapons don't cause pinning checks.
Imperial Guard orders can give certain units pinning on their shooting. Also, IA 13 quad guns cause pinning tests. Barrage weapons in general, though, don't.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Oh jesus wat?

thats majorly lame though a relief as well as i keep forgetting to ask people to take pinning checks

 Desubot wrote:
Oh jesus wat?

thats majorly lame though a relief as well as i keep forgetting to ask people to take pinning checks

It really dosen't make sense at all to me. Im sure its always had pinning, and one of the things about mortars in their actual real life applications isn't so much a weapon of destruction, but one that is designed to "pin" your enemies when you are advancing on their position, and is typically classified as a support weapon.

Plus who the hell won't want to run for cover when the shells come raining down from who knows where, at least if theres a tank coming in you know where its going to fire from.