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Mangler Cannon (4): Range 1-3 Attack 3 May turn 1 hit into a crit.

Heavy Lazer Cannon (7): Range 2-3 Attack 4 Turn all crits into hits

For most ships, is there a reason to take the HLC over the MC? For 3 extra points you get +1 attack, but you create a Range 1 doughnut hole where the HLC can't attack. You turn all crits into hits, whereas the Mangler Cannon goes the opposite way: giving you the option of turning a hit into a crit. (optional being nice if your opponent is running Chewie or some upgrade that lets them ignore certain crits).

I'm fairly new, only played twice and never with Scum yet, but it seems the Mangler for 3 points cheaper is generally the better option. Who works better with the HLC?

I like that 4th die when attacking at range 3. You can't use the HLC at range 1 but then you get a +1 to your primary weapon anyway so I think I'd still go HLC over Mangler.

For some ships, it's not an equivalent choice. YT-1300 already has three red dice at Range 1-3. Would you pay 4 points to change a hit to crit (in forward arc only)? Marksmanship does more for you at 3 points. Same analysis for Firespray and Decimator.

So this is pretty much a question for YT-2400s. Which in turn becomes, so why do people like HLC on YT-2400s? First, they can get the 360 arc for the HLC thanks to the Outrider title. Second, they want another attack die. One more chance to hit is better than changing a hit into a crit. The real issue is the donut hole but if I understand correctly that is sort of the bait for TIE Phantoms, so you know which way to point Corran.

TheHogweed wrote:I like that 4th die when attacking at range 3. You can't use the HLC at range 1 but then you get a +1 to your primary weapon anyway so I think I'd still go HLC over Mangler.

Very good point I had not considered. I guess if your primary weapon is already high enough the doughnut isn't an issue.

Manchu wrote:For some ships, it's not an equivalent choice. YT-1300 already has three red dice at Range 1-3. Would you pay 4 points to change a hit to crit (in forward arc only)? Marksmanship does more for you at 3 points. Same analysis for Firespray and Decimator.

So this is pretty much a question for YT-2400s. Which in turn becomes, so why do people like HLC on YT-2400s? First, they can get the 360 arc for the HLC thanks to the Outrider title. Second, they want another attack die. One more chance to hit is better than changing a hit into a crit. The real issue is the donut hole but if I understand correctly that is sort of the bait for TIE Phantoms, so you know which way to point Corran.

Ah! Good call, good call. Like I said, I've only got 2 games under my belt (one of which was a team game where I played a support ship list). The Firespray fits into scum lists so that's good to think about.

I feel like on the Aggressor the HLC is a no brainer. Shooting 4 dice all the time and the Cannon double tap with 8 (!) dice at range 2-3 is better than shooting 6 dice with changing 1 hit to a crit. But if you're taking 2 Aggressors (which of course you should) I suppose you could have both! One that'll reliably strip 2-3 shields a turn before focus and target locks and one that can better aim for 5 hull damage (with a direct hit) per turn.

You can also take a pot shot at someone close with your primary and then if you miss completely, reach out and touch someone with the HLC at range 3.

Firespray is a no brainer for reasons mentioned above.

The Scyk... well. I could hear an argument for both, but I would always prefer the Laser Cannon. If I'm going to drop the points for the title and the Cannon, I'm gonna shell out for one of the two pilots that has an EPT then at that point I may as well get the more expensive (imo) better weapon.

If I want a Mangler I can just get the generic pilot with an EPT and take the new Calculation talent from the Starviper expansion. At range 1 you'll be attacking with just as many dice with roughly the same outcome for 5 points less (calculation is 1 point, Heavy Scyk Title plus the Mangler is 6)

I suppose if you wanted to take 5 scrubs with manglers you could but it probably wouldn't get you very far.

Manchu wrote:For some ships, it's not an equivalent choice. YT-1300 already has three red dice at Range 1-3. Would you pay 4 points to change a hit to crit (in forward arc only)? Marksmanship does more for you at 3 points. Same analysis for Firespray and Decimator.

So this is pretty much a question for YT-2400s. Which in turn becomes, so why do people like HLC on YT-2400s? First, they can get the 360 arc for the HLC thanks to the Outrider title. Second, they want another attack die. One more chance to hit is better than changing a hit into a crit. The real issue is the donut hole but if I understand correctly that is sort of the bait for TIE Phantoms, so you know which way to point Corran.

1) the YT 1300 and Decimator do not have cannon upgrades.
2) Some firesprays like it, some don't. Kath Scarlet loves getting reliable crits on people.

 bocatt wrote:
I feel like on the Aggressor the HLC is a no brainer. Shooting 4 dice all the time and the Cannon double tap with 8 (!) dice at range 2-3 is better than shooting 6 dice with changing 1 hit to a crit. But if you're taking 2 Aggressors (which of course you should) I suppose you could have both! One that'll reliably strip 2-3 shields a turn before focus and target locks and one that can better aim for 5 hull damage (with a direct hit) per turn.

What double tap are you referring to? If you mean the IG-88B ability, you don't just fire twice (like Corran Horn), you only get that shot from the ability if your first completely misses (like Gunner). Flew a couple of times against a double Aggressor list today and with the HLC the "Gunner" shot never came into play as it would always score at least one hit.

The issue I ran into with Kath (and cannons on Firesprays in general) is that most of the time I am shooting out the rear arc, it's just easier keeping that on a ship. I still too the Mangler, and it did well the few times I shot it, but I'm not sure I'd really call it a must have.

 derek wrote:

 bocatt wrote:
I feel like on the Aggressor the HLC is a no brainer. Shooting 4 dice all the time and the Cannon double tap with 8 (!) dice at range 2-3 is better than shooting 6 dice with changing 1 hit to a crit. But if you're taking 2 Aggressors (which of course you should) I suppose you could have both! One that'll reliably strip 2-3 shields a turn before focus and target locks and one that can better aim for 5 hull damage (with a direct hit) per turn.

What double tap are you referring to? If you mean the IG-88B ability, you don't just fire twice (like Corran Horn), you only get that shot from the ability if your first completely misses (like Gunner). Flew a couple of times against a double Aggressor list today and with the HLC the "Gunner" shot never came into play as it would always score at least one hit.

The issue I ran into with Kath (and cannons on Firesprays in general) is that most of the time I am shooting out the rear arc, it's just easier keeping that on a ship. I still too the Mangler, and it did well the few times I shot it, but I'm not sure I'd really call it a must have.

I did mean the missed shot rule and what I mean is that with 8 dice you are sure to hit something. Even without any focus or target locks. e.x. after performing a segoran loop.

I assumed this discussion was about taking a cannon. Not "should I take a cannon or not" and for scumscarlet I think the answer to that question is no, because you are encouraged by her pilot ability to shoot from the rear arc, possibly getting 5 dice at range 1 with no other rules in effect.

EmpireScarlet I could see a reason to take the mangler, and a mercenary copilot, but I think the Firespray has somewhat been supplanted by the Decimator in a lot of Empire lists. You can still run 3 barebones bounty hunters with Empire, but then the question of cannons is irrelevant.

 streamdragon wrote:
For most ships, is there a reason to take the HLC over the MC?

I think the opposite is true: 95% of the time you want the HLC if you buy a cannon at all, and the mangler cannon is a niche-role weapon that will rarely see any use. On everything but the scyk the mangler cannon only does two things for its high point cost:

1) No bonus defense die at range 3. Obviously this is a significant upgrade over your primary gun.

2) One hit becomes a crit. This is a much less significant upgrade, since there are so many times when it doesn't matter. If your target has shields remaining the crit is useless. If the target has only 1 HP left when you apply the crit it is useless. If the target has an ability that negates crits it is useless. If your crit isn't a relevant one (munitions failure on a ship with no secondary weapons, etc) then it's not worth very much. Crits are nice when you can get them, but it's rarely worth paying extra points just to turn hits into crits.

Compare that to the HLC, which has the same defense die negation but actually adds more firepower. And that firepower advantage is huge since X-Wing is a game of opposed dice, unlike 40k (and similar games) where you just roll to see how much damage you do. The important thing in X-Wing math is the difference between attack and defense dice. Attack and defense dice cancel each other out, as a rough approximation. So let's say you're shooting at an x-wing. The mangler cannon has three red against two green, for a net advantage of one red die (or about 0.5-1.0 damage, depending on focus/TL availability). The HLC makes it four red against two green, for a net advantage of two red dice. That's double the expected damage for only 3 points!

Secondary question on the HLC that I didn't think warranted its own thread.

Heavy Laser Cannon - Immediately after rolling your attack dice, you must change all your (Crit) results to (Hit) results.
Calculation - When attacking, you may spend a focus token to change 1 of your (Focus) results into a (Crit) result.


So if I'm reading the interaction between these two correctly, if I have a HLC on say a Firespray. I roll my dice, get 1 Focus and 2 Hits and a Crit. I immediately turn the Crit into a Hit. I now spend a Focus token for Calculation, giving me 1 Crit and 3 Hits. Am I correct in thinking that the Crit does NOT have to be turned into a further hit? Since I've already satisfied the "Immediately turn crits to hits" for the HLC? I'm toying around with a double Firespray list. Calculation is only 1 point and doesn't take up an action to use, just a Focus token.

 streamdragon wrote:

So if I'm reading the interaction between these two correctly, if I have a HLC on say a Firespray. I roll my dice, get 1 Focus and 2 Hits and a Crit. I immediately turn the Crit into a Hit. I now spend a Focus token for Calculation, giving me 1 Crit and 3 Hits. Am I correct in thinking that the Crit does NOT have to be turned into a further hit? Since I've already satisfied the "Immediately turn crits to hits" for the HLC? I'm toying around with a double Firespray list. Calculation is only 1 point and doesn't take up an action to use, just a Focus token.

Your thinking is correct. It would also be the case if you used a target lock to reroll any dice and came up with a crit result from that.

The Mangler on the scyk is much preferable than the HLC. That hit turned crit is huge - lest we forget that one of the three factions has very little in the way of shields (imperials). TIEs, interceptors, and most of the decimators are very succeptable to crits from early on in the game. Also, those scyks are going to usually have a turn or two where they aren't able to fire because of maneuvering. That is a lot of points on a big weapon that you can't shoot - also as the game goes on, your opponent is going to get in that scyks face because it is a HLC.

Azeroth wrote:
The Mangler on the scyk is much preferable than the HLC.

Not really. A scyk with a mangler cannon is 20 points for a ship with a 3/3/2/1 stat line and a bonus hit to a crit. That's almost the same as the 3/3/3/0 stat line of the TIE interceptor, which is two points cheaper despite having a better maneuverable dial and the boost action. And the (non-Fel) TIE interceptor is generally considered an overpriced ship that sees very little competitive play. So effectively what you're saying by putting a mangler cannon on a scyk is that you're willing to pay ~4-5 (or more!) points to turn one hit into a crit. That's not a good deal at all.

Conclusion: if you're going to put a cannon on a scyk, at least use one that doesn't just duplicate an existing ship that is too weak to use. That means either an HLC (maximum damage) or ion cannon (control).

But S&V players can't use TIE Interceptors. So the question is, how does Syck w/Mangler stack up against what S&V can field?

 Manchu wrote:
But S&V players can't use TIE Interceptors. So the question is, how does Syck w/Mangler stack up against what S&V can field?

The point is not that you should take TIE interceptors instead, it's that each ship can be rated based on whether it is overpriced or underpriced. And while we haven't had much of a chance to evaluate the scyk in actual games we can compare it to how similar ships perform. We can conclude that if the TIE interceptor isn't powerful enough relative to its point cost to be a viable competitive option a ship that pays even more points to add on a low-value ability is also going to be too weak relative to its point cost. The 3/3/3 HP stat line is worth considerably less than 18 points, and turning a single hit into a crit each turn does not add enough value to that stat line to justify costing 20 points, no matter what other ship is going to replace it.

See this thread for an explanation of how ship values can be evaluated, including the math on why the mangler scyk is not a viable option.

 Peregrine wrote:
isn't powerful enough relative to its point cost

... relative to other options, is the appropriate end of that clause.

 Manchu wrote:
... relative to other options, is the appropriate end of that clause.

But we know that scum have ships with better value for their point cost, and even if the mangler scyk had the best power relative to its point cost of all the scum ships all it would mean is that scum are not viable in any kind of competitive environment.

You probably missed the late edit to my last post, but this link explains what I'm talking about, including the math on why the mangler scyk is not a viable option: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/128417-mathwing-comprehensive-ship-jousting-values-and-more/

I don't understand MathWing. For example, doesn't it suggest that the Decimator is an awful ship?

 Manchu wrote:
I don't understand MathWing. For example, doesn't it suggest that the Decimator is an awful ship?

Yes, but you just have to remember that it is most accurate for ships with no special tricks beyond the ship you're comparing it to. For example, an x-wing and a z-95 are pretty much the same ship, so all that matters is the jousting math. If you compare the x-wing to a PTL TIE interceptor you have to remember that the interceptor has a significant maneuvering advantage beyond the math. But if you compare the a-wing and interceptor you're back to two ships with very similar tricks and the math is more accurate. And even when ships have fancy tricks the math will tell you how far above the raw numbers a ship needs to perform to justify its cost. For example, can you get 30% additional value out of a maneuverability advantage to make up for a weaker stat line? That's what the "percent required" column in the mathwing tables tells you. So:

In the case of the decimator the math for jousting alone isn't that great, but the turret enables it to out-perform its stat line by dodging arcs while continue to fire and negating the maneuverability of opposing ships. And its math compares well to the other turret ships, so if we know that YT-1300s are doing pretty well then it's a safe assumption that the decimator is worth considering.

In the case of the mangler scyk it doesn't do anything exceptional. It rolls attack dice at ships in its arc, and it hopefully rolls enough defense dice to stay alive. It doesn't have any special buffs/debuffs, it doesn't have any significant maneuverability advantage, it doesn't earn advantages through multiple actions, etc. Its one bonus (turning a hit into a crit) translates directly into damage, and we know that the value of a hit compared to a crit isn't all that much. So the math of its basic stat line is going to be a pretty accurate evaluation of its performance in a real game. And that math tells us that it has a weaker stat line than a TIE interceptor (a ship that is generally considered too weak to be viable) but doesn't even get the interceptor's maneuvering options to make up for it. IOW, it isn't likely to be a viable option.

Now let's compare the mangler scyk to the HLC scyk: it's exactly the same ship besides the gun, so we can expect the math to be very accurate. And we see that the HLC scyk is a much better deal. Conclusion: if you put a cannon on your scyk, it's either an ion cannon or an HLC.

The mangler scyk is not 6 points for a hit to a crit. It is 6 points for +1 attack dice, hit to crit, and a shield rather than a hull. Any comparison to the tie interceptor is irrelevant as scum can't take it. And the tie interceptor is taken all the time. Soontir fel comes to mind. Especially now that you add autothrusters. The reason that more of the basic ones aren't taken is because imperials have so many different options.

Peregrine explicitly carved out Baron Fel from his analysis. I agree that the comparison to TIE Interceptors is not relevant in itself but he clarified that it was just an example drawn from MathWing methodology. He used Interceptors because they have an otherwise comparable stat line.

Azeroth wrote:
Any comparison to the tie interceptor is irrelevant as scum can't take it.

No, it's entirely relevant. The point is not "take TIE interceptors instead of scyks", it's that each ship has a value relative to its point cost. A ship with 100% efficiency (or more) is competitive, a ship with 95% efficiency can be viable, and once you start getting below 90% you'd better get some absolutely amazing special abilities or you're throwing away your chances of winning by taking that ship. We know that TIE interceptors are in the lower tier at about 90% and see no competitive use as a result. And we know that the mangler scyk is even lower, at about 80%. So if a TIE interceptor's top-tier action bar and maneuver dial aren't enough to overcome a 90% rating in jousting math we can very confidently assume that a mangler scyk, which has a weaker dial and actions, will not be able to overcome much worse math. It doesn't matter what you replace each ship with in your list, they just aren't viable options.

And the tie interceptor is taken all the time. Soontir fel comes to mind.

1) No, interceptors aren't taken all the time. They might see some use in casual environments, but they're virtually nonexistent in competitive play.

2) Fel is the one exception due to PS 9 and an extremely powerful special ability. The scyk has neither of these things.

I really want to disagree with Peregrine but yeah, math and logic suck. :(

On the other hand, you are talking a 3 points difference between the Mangler and HLC. - That's a notable enough difference to me.

The other thing to of course remind people is that Attack dice have the edge (1/8) over equivalent Defence dice.

Ok, so, maybe the Mangler cannon isn't an auto-include, but that doesn't mean it's trash, it may just have more of a niche role than people had hoped.

 Compel wrote:
On the other hand, you are talking a 3 points difference between the Mangler and HLC. - That's a notable enough difference to me.

But it's also a 4-point difference compared to no cannon upgrade at all. So you have two possible situations:

1) You have a 3-dice primary gun, which means you're paying 4 points to ignore the bonus defense die at range 3 and turn one hit into a crit. Based on previous ships and upgrades we can be pretty confident that 4 points is way too much for such a minor improvement, and you're almost always better off spending those points elsewhere if you don't want to invest the full 7 in a HLC.

2) You have a 2-dice primary gun. Currently there are two of these, which have to be analyzed separately:

2a) The YT-2400. Obviously this is a bad ship without the Outrider title, so that means you have to have a cannon upgrade. And since it's your only gun the "donut hole" problem with the HLC is a much bigger factor. IMO the HLC is still superior, but at least the mangler is a legitimate choice if you want a range 1-3 gun but want Dash's pilot ability instead of the YT-1300.

2b) The scyk. Theoretically the mangler could be a "cheap cannon" upgrade, but we know the math on it sucks and it isn't a viable option.

Ok, so, maybe the Mangler cannon isn't an auto-include, but that doesn't mean it's trash, it may just have more of a niche role than people had hoped.

The fact that it has a niche role doesn't prevent it from being trash most of the time. And it's definitely a niche-role weapon, the only ships that are ever going to want it are ones that have special abilities that require cannons (YT-2400, IG88-B) or crits (Ten Numb). But even most of those ships are either very weak (Ten Numb) or want a HLC most of the time (IG88).

 Compel wrote:

Ok, so, maybe the Mangler cannon isn't an auto-include, but that doesn't mean it's trash, it may just have more of a niche role than people had hoped.

I think it was always going to be sitting in that niche role, and the things that it does well on it does -really- well for them. It helps Imperial Kath make the most of her ability to an extent, I still think the Firespray will take the majority of shots out of rear arc which makes scum Kath so much better. Where the Mangler truly shines is with Ten Numb. As long as you can roll a Hit or Crit result on three dice you are guaranteeing a damage a turn. It probably still has a place in the Scyk swarm, but I'm not sure that list is actually viable.

That said I feel like post scum, players are really going to have to start upping their game to include attacks that can get more than 3 hits a turn. There is just a lot of high agility ships entering the meta, some returning to it because of Autothrusters, and some that will continue to do well like the Phantom.

 derek wrote:
Where the Mangler truly shines is with Ten Numb. As long as you can roll a Hit or Crit result on three dice you are guaranteeing a damage a turn.

But this has three problems:

1) Ten Numb is incredibly overpriced, and now you're talking about adding even more points to his cost.

2) Ten Numb's ability isn't all that great when HLCs exist. Sure, you can always inflict damage, but you can get a pretty good approximation of that with a HLC. Four hits will almost always inflict damage, and Farlander can take opportunist and make it five dice with focus + TL.

3) Defense dice are only part of the problem. The targets where Ten Numb's ability is most valuable (phatoms, Fel, etc) are the ones that are least likely to be in his arc at all. So you're spending a ton of points on a high-agility counter that struggles to get shots on those targets before he inevitably dies. Meanwhile against the targets Ten Numb can consistently get shots on you're already doing enough damage without his pilot ability.

It probably still has a place in the Scyk swarm, but I'm not sure that list is actually viable.

It doesn't, look at the math for it. The numbers are just too low for the point cost, if you're putting manglers on your scyks then you're throwing away your chances of winning. The scyk swarm's only hope of winning is to take HLCs.

 Peregrine wrote:

3) Defense dice are only part of the problem. The targets where Ten Numb's ability is most valuable (phatoms, Fel, etc) are the ones that are least likely to be in his arc at all. So you're spending a ton of points on a high-agility counter that struggles to get shots on those targets before he inevitably dies. Meanwhile against the targets Ten Numb can consistently get shots on you're already doing enough damage without his pilot ability.

I think this is one where we're just going to disagree. With Ten bumped up to PS10 from VI, he'll be moving after Fel and Phantoms have both done their positioning, and he should have the advanced sensors for the barrel roll adjusting to make sure he keeps his shot. While they can still arc dodge it, they're likely dodging the HLC too and it's 3 points you basically wasted. It's still a very niche build, but it's one that I've actually seen do well on the table against competent players. I think you're too easily writing it off.

It probably still has a place in the Scyk swarm, but I'm not sure that list is actually viable.

It doesn't, look at the math for it. The numbers are just too low for the point cost, if you're putting manglers on your scyks then you're throwing away your chances of winning. The scyk swarm's only hope of winning is to take HLCs.

I flew a tie swarm against 2 aggressors with mangler cannons last night. Not pretty, that upgrade to crit really, really hurts if you don't have shields.

winterdyne wrote:
Not pretty, that upgrade to crit really, really hurts if you don't have shields.

Really? Outside of the really rare crippling ones like a munitions failure on a turret y-wing or negating PTL on Fel (2-4 cards out of the whole deck, for a given ship) the best crits to inflict are the ones that do double damage. So let's compare that to a HLC: the mangler has a decent chance of doing two damage with that crit, but the HLC probably inflicts a second hit from its fourth attack die (since three dice are enough to produce at least one uncanceled hit). And, unlike the mangler cannon, the HLC gets to inflict its extra damage against shields.

Can't IG88B use Accuracy Corrector if you do hit, to turn them all blank but two two direct-damage, and then use his ability to now fire a HLC shot?

I've been running 2x Aggressor with Accuracy Corrector, HLC, and Outmaneuver each, and have just been rolling people. If you score an amazing hit... keep it... if you whiff, or do so-so... turn it into two damage and get another go of it. :-p