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The crucible of lies allows you to reroll invulnerable saves of 1. In the rulebook it says that you should use your best save. Let's say I give my hq terminator armor, does that mean when hit by a bolt gun he can reroll 1's?. I roll a one for a save. In this case his best save would be the invulnerable that allowed him to reroll 1's and not his terminator armor.

The rules define that the lower the number, the better the save. As such the best save is a 2+, followed by a 3+, 4+, etc. The rules don't care about re-rolls, only the value of the save.

In your example, your best save is the 2+ armour save.

peirceg wrote:
In this case his best save would be the invulnerable that allowed him to reroll 1's and not his terminator armor.

How do you figure that?

A 5 in 6 chance of passing is better than a 2 in 6 chance with a reoll on one specific failure.

 insaniak wrote:

peirceg wrote:
In this case his best save would be the invulnerable that allowed him to reroll 1's and not his terminator armor.

How do you figure that?

A 5 in 6 chance of passing is better than a 2 in 6 chance with a reoll on one specific failure.

He is saying that because he rolled the one the invulnerable save is better because he could re-roll it where as his armor save is worse because it failed and no chance at a re-roll.

What the OP is not taking into account is you pick the best (lowest number) save before the roll, so in fact you are not able to roll an invulnerable save unless the weapon ignores your armor.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
He is saying that because he rolled the one the invulnerable save is better because he could re-roll it where as his armor save is worse because it failed and no chance at a re-roll.

And insaniak pointed out that even with the re-roll the odds for the 2+ armour save are better than the invulnerable save.

 Ghaz wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
He is saying that because he rolled the one the invulnerable save is better because he could re-roll it where as his armor save is worse because it failed and no chance at a re-roll.

And insaniak pointed out that even with the re-roll the odds for the 2+ armour save are better than the invulnerable save.

I know but I was pointing out what I thought the OP was thinking which was:

1) roll a die for the save
2) die shows a 1
3) Invulnerable saves re-roll 1's
4) Invulnerable save is better than armor because I could re-roll that 1

When the correct steps would be

1) pick the best save
2) armor save is the best save
3) roll a die for the armor save
4) die shows a 1
5) take a wound because I am rolling armor saves as it was the best save.

And insaniak asked him how he figured that the invulnerable save was better when even with the re-roll the armour save gives him better odds. There is no way that the invulnerable save could ever be considered better, it does not meet the rulebook requirement of being better and it doesn't give you better odds of passing the test than the armour save.

So why does he say his 'best save' is the invulnerable when the armour save is the best according to the rules and the best according to the odds of successfully saving the wound?

Ignore the rules for a moment.

Which is better? A failed 2+ save with no re-roll or a failed 5+ save with a re-roll? The failed 5+ save with a re-roll is better because at that moment in time it has a possibility of not being a failed save while the failed 2+ save with no re-roll does not.

Now stop ignoring the rules and we realize that the 2+ save with no re-roll is better than the 5+ save with a re-roll of 1's so we have to take the 2+ save with no re-roll and when the die shows a 1 we take a wound.

And yet again, there is no way the invulnerable can be considered the 'best save'. Even with a re-roll on the invulnerable you have better odds with the armour save. Why is that so hard to understand? The 2+ save with no re-roll is better that the 5+ that you can only re-roll if you rolled a 1.

 Ghaz wrote:
And yet again, there is no way the invulnerable can be considered the 'best save'. Even with a re-roll on the invulnerable you have better odds with the armour save. Why is that so hard to understand? The 2+ save with no re-roll is better that the 5+ that you can only re-roll if you rolled a 1.

I'm going to try and explain this one more time then I'm done because the OP question has been answered. For clarification the 2+ save is the best save and he would not be able to re-roll the failed invulnerable save of 1 because he was taking the armor save.

step 1 you assign a wound to the model
step 2 you roll a die
step 3 the die shows a 1
step 4 now we decide the "best save". At this moment the "best save" is the 5+ invulnerable save with re-roll's of 1 because the die is a 1 so we could re-roll it, possibly getting a 5+ and that is "better" than a 2+ save because the die shows a 1 and can't be re-rolled and such is a failed save.

As I've been saying this is wrong, because we would determine the best save at step 2 before we roll the die and at which point the best save is the 2+.

And again, you totally miss the point. Even if one were to follow that, you still have better odds of passing with the 2+ armour save without a re-roll.

Why is a re-roll 'better' than a roll that actually gives you better odds?

That is what insaniak was asking him.

 Ghaz wrote:
And yet again, there is no way the invulnerable can be considered the 'best save'. Even with a re-roll on the invulnerable you have better odds with the armour save. Why is that so hard to understand? The 2+ save with no re-roll is better that the 5+ that you can only re-roll if you rolled a 1.

Are you trolling here? He's agreeing with you but just explaining the OPs thought and you're being rude about it. Sheesh. He was saying what you're insisting from the get go. Reading fail


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:
And again, you totally miss the point.

Someone is

I'll say it real simple. You're right, you win, because no one's disagreed with you here. Walk away poor kid.

No. I'm not trolling. He doesn't seem to understand what insaniak was asking the OP in why he thought a re-roll was 'better' than a roll that gave him better odds of passing.

So who had the reading fail? Because he never once explained why someone would think that a re-roll automatically made that the 'best save' even if the odds (and rules) say otherwise.

 Ghaz wrote:
No. I'm not trolling. He doesn't seem to understand what insaniak was asking the OP in why he thought a re-roll was 'better' than a roll that gave him better odds of passing.

Not only did he understand, he answered the question. He explained

A) what the OP was thinking then
B) why that was wrong for the OP to think that

The you jumped in a told him A was wrong (which he said) and why he should think B was correct (he already did).

Reread what's there, not what you think's there. Don't worry. It's no biggie, everyone does it. My poor students do it all the time and I fall into that rut too. I'm out.

No, he didn't answer the question. All he did was run through the process. He never once explained why that process would provide the best save.

sO... That escalated.



Asked and answered. Moving on.