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Carrying on from this thread (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/637892.page), where people told me that DE would potentially be an army that would interest me.
The catch is that DE are one of the two armies I know very little about, so I am looking for advice.
I am looking for a high risk high reward army. Extreme offensive power but a single misplay could cost me the game.

Unit that interest me are:
Warriors/Trueborn
Reavers
Raiders/Venoms
Scourges
Razorwing
Mandrakes

Could those make a decent list?

Units that I would like to know more about:
Talon
Cronos
Grotesques
Helions

Allies are also an option, as long as the general idea of a porcelain nuclear weapon is kept.

Thanks for any input

Best advice I can give a new member of the Dark Kin is to head over to www.thedarkcity.net, as it is your best resource for all things Dark Eldar.

To answer your question, you can make a decent list with everything but the Mandrakes (some people disagree, but I think they went from terrible to merely bad).

As for the units you're interested in, Talos, Grotesques, and Cronos are some of toughest, deadliest DE units. Especially if run out of the Covens supplement, which I would say is a must have for anybody looking to play DE due to the flexibility and extra options it gives you.

I am just not seeing how some slow, hulking monstrosities are supposed to fit into an army that is all about lightning fast movement and hit and run tactics.

Then don't use those units?

 Trade_Prince wrote:
I am just not seeing how some slow, hulking monstrosities are supposed to fit into an army that is all about lightning fast movement and hit and run tactics.

With regard to Talos, they do give you an anvil unit in an otherwise fragile codex. Cronos are far less useful unless you're also taking multiple talos (since they can't keep up with most of the units they're supposed to be supporting).

Saying that, I don't like them. It seems like our MCs are being held to a different standard than those of most other armies - which are allowed to be tough, mobile and very hard hitting (whereas ours are stuck with weak melee attacks and can only move 6" per turn).

However, Dark Artisan does let use a Talos and Cronos as a durable Warlord-bunker for a Haemonculus, and allows you to alleviate their speed issues to some degree by taking a WWP. I'm still not convinced that it's worth its cost, but it's the only way I'd field Talos or Cronos.

With regard to Grotesques, bear in mind that they can take Raider transports - which means all they're really missing is Fleet (and the Grotesquerie formation gives you a chance of getting that back).

With regard to Hellions... don't. Just don't. Reavers are better in every way.

Scourges for surgical anti-tank, splinter boats for infantry and MCs and Reavers for busting up light stuff tends to be the way to go.

The thing to understand is that DE are a surgical shooting army, not really close combat oriented. The new Harlequins are much more cc focused.

Just to give you some advice I went to a 3 game tournament recently and the:

Stars of the tournament were Grotesques without them my army would hve been destroyed. (two groups of 4)

Reavers were great but 2 of the three games my opponent had ignore cover but the reavers were the best AT I had. (cluster caltrops)

All I would advise is make sure you have a close combat unit like the Grotesque to suppot your fast vehicles.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
Carrying on from this thread (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/637892.page), where people told me that DE would potentially be an army that would interest me.
The catch is that DE are one of the two armies I know very little about, so I am looking for advice.
I am looking for a high risk high reward army. Extreme offensive power but a single misplay could cost me the game.

Unit that interest me are:
Warriors/Trueborn The base of any Dark Eldar army are warriors. Either in venoms in units of 5, or in a Raider with Nightshields in units of 7/8. Blasters optional, i don't like them. Forget about trueborn, you have much better places to get your special weapons. See Scourges.
Raiders/Venoms Another great base unit. As a rule, Venoms are for Warriors and Incubi, Raiders are for everything else. Always buy the second cannon for Venoms and always buy Nightshields and Dark Lances for Raiders. I highly suggest using 3 Grotesques + Independent Character in a Raider, they make for one hell of a shock unit.
Reavers Great unit. Take real space raiders detachment allows 6 Fast attack slots. Use all of them. It is perfectly fine to split it 2 Reavers, 2 Scourges and 2 Razorwings as they are all amazing units with unique niches. Take Reavers in units of 6 with 2 Cluster Caltrops, no special weapons.
Scourges Our best anti-tank and possibly one of the best in the game. 5 Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters cost 120pts, and will realistically strip 3 hull points a turn, destroying most vehicles and crippling even Knights. Take at least 2 units unless you have at least 2 Ravagers, there is simply no other place in the codex to get such potent anti-tank for cheap. Consider Heat Lances if you play against Tau/Tyranids a lot, but i prefer Haywire for reliablility.
Razorwing Don't get confused, this is a quite a bad fighter plane. But it has 3 distinct advantages that make it so great. 1) It's very cheap, coming stock below 150pts. 2) It fits perfectly with Dark Eldar beta strike, and provides adequate anti-air in a pinch. But the big one is the 4 missiles. It can also throw all 4 first turn. It's ridiculous how many saves 4 Strength 6 large blasts will cause, that many units will simply melt under the amount of armour saves. Extremely good for it's points. Consider 2, always take Dark Lances over disintegration and don't take Nightshields, after it's first turn it doesn't matter if it dies. It should of done it's job already.
Mandrakes Not half as bad as people seem to think, but not amazing either. In my lists they have a distinct role, they are my anchor. Dark Eldar rely heavily on reserves, and should start with very little on the table. Mandrakes, parked in cover (possibly behind an Aegis Defense line with comms relay if you have neglected to ally in an Autarch) in units as small as 3 have a 2+ cover save. That should more then suffice to keep you on the board until everything comes in, unless your against Wyverns. Screw you Wyverns.

Could those make a decent list?

Units that I would like to know more about:
Talos Great monstrous creature. Take in units of 2 and throw them down the line. Can replace Mandrakes as my Anchor unit, more expensive but hell'a durable and more likely to contribute. Leave with stock ranged weapon and take the Ichor Injector, just to scare the jeebus out of enemy Wraithknights are TMC's. Consider the coven formations, particularly Dark Artisan one, to make best use of them. Of all my units, these guys are surprisingly one of my favorites. Yes, that even surprised me!
Cronos A bad unit really, but they become amazingly effective when used in the Dark Artisan formation. Only used in the formation personally, but 9 T7 3+/4+++ re-roll 1's for FNP is more tank then most people expect from Dark Eldar.
Grotesques Great unit of shock troops. You have two choices, 3 in a Raider with a character, or more in a unit arriving via Webway portal. Both are good, the Raider one allows second turn charges but the Webway will always have them in position. Don't take with a Haemonculi, instead use a Sucubus with Archite Glaive and Armour of Misery. Take an Abberation, but he doesn't need anything special. Use in the Coven formation for optimum use. Remember to laugh when they roll +3 attacks for rampage and each Grotesque gets 8 attacks each, it is a good feeling.
Helions Ignore these or convert them into the slightly less useless Beast Masters. You call.

Allies are also an option, as long as the general idea of a porcelain nuclear weapon is kept.

Thanks for any input

Did i help

Amazing help. You helped me with the Trueborn problem. I sort of found them lack-luster compared to other choices.

This is a prototype 1500pts list:


Not sure which way to go when going beyond 1500pts. More Scourges? Another Jetfighter? Something else entirely?

Also, you recon those 10 Warriors in Raider are worth it? Or downgrade them to another unit of 5 to have three Venoms (and only 1 Raider) at 1500pts and use those points (and those from Scourges when downgrading) to get something else? I would be at 1400pts if I do so. Getting a second Razorwing at 1550pts might be an option, or more Jetbikes.

Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, I think I got something. I might get the Grotesquerie formation from the Coven. Have three Grots with Aberration (which scissors) run with Succubus in the Raider while the second unit goes with the Haemonculus, either with WWP and in another Raider. Probably with WWP to have that flexibility and less stuff that I need to hide T1.

So couple critiques.

Personally for me I would drop the heat lances from the Reavers and combine them to 6 man.

Drop the Inquisitor if they want to get close to you I see no problem with it. Melta range doesnt matter for us and bolters will glance you to death. Drop him for more dakka or buffing your Grotesques.

Realspace Raiders is a crap detachment take cad whenever possible. If you combine the reavers you can do this.

Personally Armour of Misery is a waste of points. In the two games I won Succubus didnt die. The Grotesques tank the wounds. Other game I got tabled by Tau.

Get rid of all Night Shields. Keep your vehicles cheap as they die faster than a mouse in a snake cage. Jinking does just fine without the plus one. Also there is a crapton of ignore cover out there.

As for Warriors in Raider my meta is Dreadknight crazy so I leave the 10 warriors in Raider at home because of flamers killing them. Venoms are great as they have a 5+ inv which makes them so much more survivable. (I know they are still 10 10 10) but Serpant spam, buff mander, drop guard with ignore cover, lotd, are prevelant.

Erm....i disagree with the above poster on some points. But i'll start with what i agree with. Drop Lances and a 6 man unit. 2D6 + 4 rending HOW is much scarier then 2x D6 + 2 Rending HOW. Having a scary unit will help take the heat off of other things. I also see little use in the Inquisitor, he is taking up points that could be spent on another razorwing.

On the other hand, RSR is sooo much better then CAD for Dark Eldar. Fast attack are the best units for our Dark Eldar, RSR lets you take 6. That's a plus. It grants Your raiders cover saves without having to jink first turn because you gain a 4+ cover due to Nightshields. If it's nightfighting you get a 3+ cover without compromising any of your shooting.

''Oh, those extra fast attacks can be emulated by multiple CAD!'' I hear you cry? Dark Eldar HQ's are taxes, useful taxes at best, but taxes. CAD forces you to take more, which is bad in my book. You lose out on objective secured, but with Maelstrom missions, everything scoring and our massive mobility that is also not a huge loss.

You do realize armour of midnight isn't there for an armour save, right? It's there for the -2 Leadership, which makes any combat won by the Grotesques extremely likely to break the unit. That unit is then swept by the Succubus's colossal Initiative value. It's the fastest way to destroy Necrons, Tau and Guard. A single Multi-charge can destroy an entire gunline as they all lose combat by 5, flee and get caught by I 8.

On Nightshields, do you know how obnoxiously durable a 3+ cover save is? It makes Raiders terrible targets for high power low quantity weapons such as Las-cannons, because 2/3 shots will be instantly ignored. Not every army has ignore cover coming out of there butts you know, and against Tau, every time he uses markerlights to remove cover is a time he isn't upgrading his mediocre BS. Always take Nightshields on Raiders.

Anyway, onto the proto-lists. Makes reavers a 6 man squad, drop lances. You will be jinking for a 3+ cover save, you won't get a chance to fire the Heat Lances. Drop Inquisitor, Splinter Cannon on Warriors and the unit down to an 8 man squad. Anything larger will just be depressing when the transport finally explodes, but 8 with splinter racks is a good threat vs Monstrous Creatures. I'd also drop the Nightshields on the Ravagers, if they are forced to jink then they are useless anyhow. Scourges=Haywire/Heatlance. Ignore the other choices, they cost more for little gain. Finally lose the Splinter Cannon on the Razorwing, he can fire 4 weapons a turn. Turn 2 is all four missiles, turn 3 should be Dark Lances. He shouldn't have to fire the Splinter Cannon.

With those points you should be able to fit in another Razorwing/Scourges to your preference.

Alex

Cheers, bud

Those lists are simply me theorycrafting. I want to start small with my purchases and get 1250pts up and running.

Something like this comes to mind:


After getting a feel for that list above I can decide better on how to fill the rest of my army (after filling the Grot Formation that is ).

Thanks everyone for their input

That would be a good start for any Dark Eldar force you'd like to expand into. Good luck to you.

My only question is, are you dead set on those Ravagers? Not that they are bad, but if they move at all they can only fire 2 weapons, snap firing the 3rd. They are also rather expensive. Would you consider swapping the Ravagers out for another unit of Reavers and another unit of Scourges?

On the other hand, Ravagers are easier to buy, and will help with early game anti-tank. So if playing friendly games, your list is perfect. It's only when taking the next step, thinking about points efficiency and that, then you'd have to double think on them.

When moving into competitive territory, it will be at 1750-1850. At that point level I will have two Razorwings, two Scourges, two Reavers, Grot formation and three units of warriors in Venoms. Getting Ravagers to hang back in cover is pretty much all thats left without upgrading Warriors to 10man Raider units and getting Trueborn for anti-tank.
At 1250 I prefer Ravagers but in competitive high point games I will have all.
Besides, once I have all the needed models, I can pick and mix anyway

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
That would be a good start for any Dark Eldar force you'd like to expand into. Good luck to you.

My only question is, are you dead set on those Ravagers? Not that they are bad, but if they move at all they can only fire 2 weapons, snap firing the 3rd. They are also rather expensive. Would you consider swapping the Ravagers out for another unit of Reavers and another unit of Scourges?

On the other hand, Ravagers are easier to buy, and will help with early game anti-tank. So if playing friendly games, your list is perfect. It's only when taking the next step, thinking about points efficiency and that, then you'd have to double think on them.

I thought Ravagers could move 6" and still fire all weapons?

They can, but they used to be able to move 12" and fire all. Just another butthurt DE reaction to the new codex.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
They can, but they used to be able to move 12" and fire all. Just another butthurt DE reaction to the new codex.

Well, they are understandably "butthurt", since neither that nerf nor the point increase of the Ravager were in any way warranted.

The Ravager used to trade armour for speed. Now it's traded armour for... nothing.

Sorry for busting in like this. I´m also quite new to the dark kin and struggel against droppod armies.
A "simple" question is, how do you deploy when you know about droppods?

sorry for any misspelling.

Belsibub wrote:
Sorry for busting in like this. I´m also quite new to the dark kin and struggle against Drop Pods armies.
A "simple" question is, how do you deploy when you know about Drop Pods ?

Sorry for any misspelling.

I'm testing a null deployment list using the Scalpel Squadron formation - having a great Alpha Strike means nothing when you've got nothing to Alpha Strike against.

Other options against Drop Pods is to build an MSU list and increase the number of targets you have, which means you have more on the board come your turn.

You'll want to go second in all cases against null deployment, other wise you waste a turn of shooting.

Also your spelling was good, just italicized the errors you made.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

On the other hand, RSR is sooo much better then CAD for Dark Eldar. Fast attack are the best units for our Dark Eldar, RSR lets you take 6. That's a plus. It grants Your raiders cover saves without having to jink first turn because you gain a 4+ cover due to Nightshields. If it's nightfighting you get a 3+ cover without compromising any of your shooting.

Night shields do not stack with night fighting as they both only grant stealth. I agree with a lot of things you've recommended, but I don't personally recommend night shields on many vehicles. They add up fast in cost and you could likely get more venoms and raiders for their cost instead which would prove tougher overall while also putting out more damage.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Erm....i disagree with the above poster on some points. But i'll start with what i agree with. Drop Lances and a 6 man unit. 2D6 + 4 rending HOW is much scarier then 2x D6 + 2 Rending HOW. Having a scary unit will help take the heat off of other things. I also see little use in the Inquisitor, he is taking up points that could be spent on another razorwing.

On the other hand, RSR is sooo much better then CAD for Dark Eldar. Fast attack are the best units for our Dark Eldar, RSR lets you take 6. That's a plus. It grants Your raiders cover saves without having to jink first turn because you gain a 4+ cover due to Nightshields. If it's nightfighting you get a 3+ cover without compromising any of your shooting.

''Oh, those extra fast attacks can be emulated by multiple CAD!'' I hear you cry? Dark Eldar HQ's are taxes, useful taxes at best, but taxes. CAD forces you to take more, which is bad in my book. You lose out on objective secured, but with Maelstrom missions, everything scoring and our massive mobility that is also not a huge loss.

You do realize armour of midnight isn't there for an armour save, right? It's there for the -2 Leadership, which makes any combat won by the Grotesques extremely likely to break the unit. That unit is then swept by the Succubus's colossal Initiative value. It's the fastest way to destroy Necrons, Tau and Guard. A single Multi-charge can destroy an entire gunline as they all lose combat by 5, flee and get caught by I 8.

On Nightshields, do you know how obnoxiously durable a 3+ cover save is? It makes Raiders terrible targets for high power low quantity weapons such as Las-cannons, because 2/3 shots will be instantly ignored. Not every army has ignore cover coming out of there butts you know, and against Tau, every time he uses markerlights to remove cover is a time he isn't upgrading his mediocre BS. Always take Nightshields on Raiders.

Anyway, onto the proto-lists. Makes reavers a 6 man squad, drop lances. You will be jinking for a 3+ cover save, you won't get a chance to fire the Heat Lances. Drop Inquisitor, Splinter Cannon on Warriors and the unit down to an 8 man squad. Anything larger will just be depressing when the transport finally explodes, but 8 with splinter racks is a good threat vs Monstrous Creatures. I'd also drop the Nightshields on the Ravagers, if they are forced to jink then they are useless anyhow. Scourges=Haywire/Heatlance. Ignore the other choices, they cost more for little gain. Finally lose the Splinter Cannon on the Razorwing, he can fire 4 weapons a turn. Turn 2 is all four missiles, turn 3 should be Dark Lances. He shouldn't have to fire the Splinter Cannon.

With those points you should be able to fit in another Razorwing/Scourges to your preference.

Alex

To clarify my original post.

Reason I say go with a CAD is right now he has 4 FA (with the 2 groups of 3 Reavers) If you combine the Reavers to a single 6 they fit nicely into a single CAD.

3 Nightshields is 60pts. Find 5pts and there is another Venom.

Armour of Whatever it is I still dont find a purpose. You mentioned 3 Armies its good vs. Necrons (Ill give you), Tau not at all. If you make it into combat with them you will destroy 95% of whatever you charge and wont need to sweep, and Guard, dont know who you play but every Guard I play has Fearless on every blob. So 1 army out of all 40k is not worth it.

I like Obsec for my fast vehicles over a 5+ cover first turn where im 90% behind terrain anyway and dont need to jink.

3 Night Shields is 45pts.

Though, I still wouldn't take them unless I had spare points.

Incidentally, I never have spare points.

Ha ya sorry 45. Still drop the Armour and boom Venom

I don't know, 3+ Jink frequently gives my opponents fits. Every now and then I don't even need to Jink to get a good save. And whilst the Armour of Misery is far from being a highly competitive choice it's a nice idea to grant the Warlord some semblance of survivability when you've got the points to spare. Of course, it's not an auto-take or anything.