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The Black Mace has a stat line of str user, ap4.

If bought by a Daemon Prince with the "smash" rule, does this

change the AP to 2?

Thanks in advance, RB

Yes unfortunately (for non chaos players), I love the black mace and all it's rules but absolutely think that in the hands of a deamon prince, it gaining ap 2 is just overpowered.

That is what Smash says it does

I wouldn't say it becoming ap2 is overpowered... Remember its a shooty edition and you're paying far more for something less survivable than a riptide or dreadknight that costs less. The prince needs to get to combat which is rather difficult with only t5 and a 3+ save, easy taken down by other units such as dk, cents, fire warriors to name a few, just shows that our strongest unit on paper sounds good but in practice is just easy to kill

True, and I haven't seen many DP's around 1 because my main chaos opponent is on hiatus and 2 maybe because of the changes to flight modes and assault. But I still stand by my assessment of it, not that it has anything to do with the question at hand anymore.

Also, daemon weapons come with a risk... roll a one and your high WS gets dropped and you take a wound. Risk/reward.

But like you said that is all deamon weapons, and like I said in my first post I personally like the rules for the black mace. That would include the risk/reward of the +d6 attacks. I just don't like it in the hands of a DP.

But as i said in my last post, this was more 6th edition when they started on the board behind a building, jumped into the air and I had to decide to waste a bunch of shooting at it to hit and ground it to then try and kill it or just ignore it. Then if it lives it charges into a unit and destroys it. The only benefit is if it did its job to well it would be out of combat for me to shoot at.

As long as it was brought up about being grounded.

Does grounding take away the glide move along with the swoop?

Usually when I run a prince with a mace it is a Nurgle prince which should really never be flying as it has a 2+ junk at all times due to shrouding. In the hands of a nurgle prince with ML3 it is quite disturbing. If you can roll Iron arm and/or endurance it becomes stellar. Giving it spell fimiliar is a must to ensure the powers go off, and for 10 points it pays for itself since you are already putting a ton into it. Granted it is expensive but still extremely strong once it makes CC, if in fact it does. The amount of points you invest to make the mace strong does not make it OP in the least.

Chaos demons don't get access to the mace.

Fragile wrote:
Chaos demons don't get access to the mace.

Sorry but that's just plain wrong. There's no restriction on who can take it apart from being able to 'Choose from the chaos relics' and a daemon prince has that permission.

DaPino wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Chaos demons don't get access to the mace.

Sorry but that's just plain wrong. There's no restriction on who can take it apart from being able to 'Choose from the chaos relics' and a daemon prince has that permission.

Chaos Daemon don't get chaos relics, they get Exalted Rewards

skycapt44 wrote:
Usually when I run a prince with a mace it is a Nurgle prince which should really never be flying as it has a 2+ junk at all times due to shrouding. In the hands of a nurgle prince with ML3 it is quite disturbing. If you can roll Iron arm and/or endurance it becomes stellar. Giving it spell fimiliar is a must to ensure the powers go off, and for 10 points it pays for itself since you are already putting a ton into it. Granted it is expensive but still extremely strong once it makes CC, if in fact it does. The amount of points you invest to make the mace strong does not make it OP in the least.

Now I don't play Chaos or own a Chaos codex so I can't do the theoryhammer myself, but ignoring the psyker and fimiliar or giving the same equivalent upgrades to a Sorcerer how much would you spend to make sure the mace got into cc and this is without ap 2. So from what I can see the only points you invest in making the mace stronger, is whatever the difference between a DP and what ever else you would think of giving the mace to and in reality you aren't investing points to make the mace stronger as much as investing points to make the DP stronger.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

skycapt44 wrote:
Usually when I run a prince with a mace it is a Nurgle prince which should really never be flying as it has a 2+ junk at all times due to shrouding. In the hands of a nurgle prince with ML3 it is quite disturbing. If you can roll Iron arm and/or endurance it becomes stellar. Giving it spell fimiliar is a must to ensure the powers go off, and for 10 points it pays for itself since you are already putting a ton into it. Granted it is expensive but still extremely strong once it makes CC, if in fact it does. The amount of points you invest to make the mace strong does not make it OP in the least.

Now I don't play Chaos or own a Chaos codex so I can't do the theoryhammer myself, but ignoring the psyker and fimiliar or giving the same equivalent upgrades to a Sorcerer how much would you spend to make sure the mace got into cc and this is without ap 2. So from what I can see the only points you invest in making the mace stronger, is whatever the difference between a DP and what ever else you would think of giving the mace to and in reality you aren't investing points to make the mace stronger as much as investing points to make the DP stronger.

The mace is garbage on anyone other then the DP because of the smash rule making it AP2. It's normally AP4 and as such won't do any worthwhile damage. There is no one to give the mace to other then the DP

DaPino wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Chaos demons don't get access to the mace.

Sorry but that's just plain wrong. There's no restriction on who can take it apart from being able to 'Choose from the chaos relics' and a daemon prince has that permission.

He means models from Codex: Chaos Daemons, however everyone else is talking about Daemon Princes from Codex: Chaos Space Marines.