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The title is the question.Because if a Formation can be taken without it's contents taking up slots in a force org. You can take an allied detachment with just one HQ and 1 troop in addition to whatever is your primary detachment. Which, as I've heard and read thus far, is usually a Battle Forged detachment or one from a codex. So in that, what can be brought in addition? Could you bring just a Formation and have an allied detachment? Or just as it's own thing in addition to your primary one? Could I go Unbound, then have a battle forged detachment in addition to my Unbound one? Or perhaps bring a formation or two in addition to my Unbound force? Where does Unbound fit with all this?

If everything is in a Detachement, either a CAD, Allied Detachment, or one of the other special ones available like the Decurion. Then you are running a 'Battle-forged' list.

If you take anything that would be considered 'Unbound' then the whole list is 'Unbound', even if you manage to fit in all the units that would be in a detachement. For example, If you run a Space Marine HQ and 2 units of Troops, then back it up with a some Tau Broadsides, then it's still 'Unbound' even though you have an HQ and 2 Troops.

Formations sit on the fence. You can take all the units in the Formation for the bonuses listed, and still gain the benefits regardless if you are running a 'Battle-forged' or 'Unbound' army.

 Akar wrote:
If everything is in a Detachement, either a CAD, Allied Detachment, or one of the other special ones available like the Decurion. Then you are running a 'Battle-forged' list.

If you take anything that would be considered 'Unbound' then the whole list is 'Unbound', even if you manage to fit in all the units that would be in a detachement. For example, If you run a Space Marine HQ and 2 units of Troops, then back it up with a some Tau Broadsides, then it's still 'Unbound' even though you have an HQ and 2 Troops.

Formations sit on the fence. You can take all the units in the Formation for the bonuses listed, and still gain the benefits regardless if you are running a 'Battle-forged' or 'Unbound' army.

How does that work for when a detachment has it's own rules for those things within it? Because the units within the detachment gain rules and such much like a formation. So why can't an Unbound be taken and be isolated from those benefits since by rights, only those things in the Unbound are well..not following any form of Force Org whereas those in the Detachment who are essentially like a formation in terms of it's it's own thing unlike the force org in the book.

From the rules for 'Battle-forged Armies':

"A player using the Battle-forged method must organise all the units they want to use into Detachments."

If even one unit does not belong to a Detachment (or Formation, which "are a special type of Detachment") then your army is not Battle-forged and therefore must be Unbound, and none of the models will receive any Command Benefits. From the rules for 'Detachments':

"Don’t forget that Detachments are entirely optional and you can still select an army by taking any models from your collection, as discussed in the Unbound method – it just means that none of the models in your army receive Command Benefits."

If I understand you correctly you're basically wondering why a CAD isn't also a Formation? Why can't you have some Obsec. units with the cream from other codexes to do the work?

Simply because the rules aren't written that way is the best answer I have for you. They simply don't want you to take whatever units you own, and still gain benefits from someone who chooses to play with some structure. Formations, while they do gain bonuses usually have drawbacks, taxes, or are very limited in their flexibility. So they're independantly balanced (supposedly).

Not that you'll find any event allowing 'Unbound' in the first place, but I'd imagine that Orks would become very popular by running a CAD of Grotz for cheap Obsec units, then still leaving the bulk of the points availabe to kill the enemy.

Akar wrote:If I understand you correctly you're basically wondering why a CAD isn't also a Formation? Why can't you have some Obsec. units with the cream from other codexes to do the work?

Simply because the rules aren't written that way is the best answer I have for you. They simply don't want you to take whatever units you own, and still gain benefits from someone who chooses to play with some structure. Formations, while they do gain bonuses usually have drawbacks, taxes, or are very limited in their flexibility. So they're independantly balanced (supposedly).

Not that you'll find any event allowing 'Unbound' in the first place, but I'd imagine that Orks would become very popular by running a CAD of Grotz for cheap Obsec units, then still leaving the bulk of the points availabe to kill the enemy.

I can see where that's coming from. Just seems weird to me that we can take all kinds of Combined arms detachments and formations and all this this and that which could all be seen as Unbound with how many things one can bring from so many different places really, allies chart withstanding whereas Unbound doesn't fall into that since it could just be the Unbound part of the army and as such received no benefits unlike the other detachments. That's where my question really formed from. Since really to me it doesn't make sense to be able to bring multiple detachments & formations and them not counting as Unbound when Unbound could simply allow one to bring in that one thing from another Army which could make logical sense. Like a stormraven from another marine chapter coming in to being the additional support for some battle brothers. Or a dark eldar raider moving in to help out some normal Eldar etc...I hope I'm getting my point across.

Mr. Shine wrote:From the rules for 'Battle-forged Armies':

"A player using the Battle-forged method must organise all the units they want to use into Detachments."

If even one unit does not belong to a Detachment (or Formation, which "are a special type of Detachment") then your army is not Battle-forged and therefore must be Unbound, and none of the models will receive any Command Benefits. From the rules for 'Detachments':

"Don’t forget that Detachments are entirely optional and you can still select an army by taking any models from your collection, as discussed in the Unbound method – it just means that none of the models in your army receive Command Benefits."

The special rules given by a detachment count as the Command Benefits I take it? Not just Objective Secured? I mean...7th Ed Codexes have their own detachments with their own rules that they gain for them. So why are they any different from a formation really who doesn't lose anything even though there is that one group of Unbound who would not gain from the benefits of either? Even though a formation can confer benefits to the overall army much like a codex detachment?

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
The special rules given by a detachment count as the Command Benefits I take it? Not just Objective Secured? I mean...7th Ed Codexes have their own detachments with their own rules that they gain for them. So why are they any different from a formation really who doesn't lose anything even though there is that one group of Unbound who would not gain from the benefits of either? Even though a formation can confer benefits to the overall army much like a codex detachment?

Yes, Command Benefits are the special rules gained by organising your army into detachments. What you're missing is that Formations are Detachments; they just don't have the same organisational layout. Detachments generally tend to use a Force Organisation Chart with mandatory and optional slots, while Formations are a very specific and generally exact combination of units. You can make a Battle-forged army out of any number and combination of Detachments, Formations or both.

But again, if even a single unit does not belong to a Detachment (and remember, Formations are just a special type of Detachment) then the army is no long Battle-forged and any Command Benefits are lost. Note that Formations taken in an Unbound army however do retain their Formation special rules.

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Just seems weird to me that we can take all kinds of Combined arms detachments and formations and all this this and that which could all be seen as Unbound with how many things one can bring from so many different places really

Basically, yeah. Welcome to 40K 7th.

Are you certain formations can be used in Unbound lists?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Are you certain formations can be used in Unbound lists?

Yes, the rulebook is quite clear on the matter.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Just seems weird to me that we can take all kinds of Combined arms detachments and formations and all this this and that which could all be seen as Unbound with how many things one can bring from so many different places really

Basically, yeah. Welcome to 40K 7th.

Creed hiding 3 Emperor Class Titans behind a pebble makes more sense then not being able to take one unbound along side other stuff....

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Are you certain formations can be used in Unbound lists?

Hell, Detachments can be used in Unbound lists if you want. They just receive no Command Benefits, and you have to have at least one non-Detachment unit.

Thats the trade off. 'Detachments benefits' vs 'any unit you want'. Not every battlefield strategy will make use of those benefits. Sometimes your list will work just a little bit better if you trade your 3 obsec troops for 2 obsec troops and an extra heavy unit.

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Just seems weird to me that we can take all kinds of Combined arms detachments and formations and all this this and that which could all be seen as Unbound with how many things one can bring from so many different places really

Basically, yeah. Welcome to 40K 7th.

Creed hiding 3 Emperor Class Titans behind a pebble makes more sense then not being able to take one unbound along side other stuff....

Not really if anything the argument should be that Formations shouldn't receive their command benefits when taken as part of an unbound army. The way army building works is that the more restrictions you have the better free extra rules you get. So if you go for no restrictions you are Unbound and receive no command benefits. If you want to be restricted by battlefield role then you have a detachment with some strategic benefits. If you want to be restricted to a set collection of units (and sometimes even the options open to those units) then you take a Formation and receive most powerful benefits.

From a game balance and play point of view there is no reason to allow Formations to receive their benefits in Unbound. From a selling big Christmas boxes point of view however...