Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Me and a friend were playing, I had my thunder wolf lord he used Striking scorpions.
Debate about My wolf lord being strength 10 while his scorpion was str 7,

Rules:
(Faq currently does not cover either)

Rule Book
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4×2=8, 8+1=9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore +1 Strength and set it at 8)

Space Wolves
Thunderwolf Mount
Only the bravest and most skilled Space Wolves have what it takes to break in one of the legendary Thunderwolves of Fenris. However, to do so is to ride to war upon a growling mountain of muscle, ferocity and cybernetics. Models with a Thunderwolf mount change their unit type to Cavalry, as described in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. All close combat attacks made by a model with a Thunderwolf mount have the Rending special rule. In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear)

Eldar
Crushing Blow- This model has +1 strength

The difference is (characteristics by 1 vs model has +1 str.
Book modify a characteristic.

Please comment and debate.

No debate needed, Multiple modifiers covers this situation.

Multiply first then add then set values.

(P.S. they both modify the characteristic).

its not a modifier to a characteristic, its a profile change. Their profile will be str 5 before modifiers when on TWC

they are str 10 with hammers

every tourney rules it this way, its RAW and how its played, people who say otherwise are claiming there is literally no way to change a base profile and it follows that they are arguing that the profile itself is a set modifier if they claim such.

its an increase in the base profile by raw, not a modifier to the base profile as some like to argue. their argument again, leads to the claim that a base stat on a profile can be a modifier in of itself, which is wrong. while in *english* the word increase may be similar enough to modifier to warrant some legitimacy to the argument, in 40k it does not, its an increase to the base profile by RAW


ITC FAQ also goes with the 10 ruling.

Considering that Thunderwolves are Str 10 normally, and GW previously FAQd in favor of this before randomly deleting most of their FAQs, most tournaments play wolf lords as str 10.

 easysauce wrote:
its not a modifier to a characteristic, its a profile change. Their profile will be str 5 before modifiers when on TWC

they are str 10 with hammers

every tourney rules it this way, its RAW and how its played, people who say otherwise are claiming there is literally no way to change a base profile and it follows that they are arguing that the profile itself is a set modifier if they claim such.

its an increase in the base profile by raw, not a modifier to the base profile as some like to argue. their argument again, leads to the claim that a base stat on a profile can be a modifier in of itself, which is wrong. while in *english* the word increase may be similar enough to modifier to warrant some legitimacy to the argument, in 40k it does not, its an increase to the base profile by RAW


ITC FAQ also goes with the 10 ruling.

How is a profile change not a modifier???

How is an increase of 1 not a modifier???

Wolf Lords are Str 9 (Str4 Increase of 1 for the mount, Times 2 for the Power fist or thunderhammer).

Multiple modifiers tells us what order to apply things when we have multiple modifiers.

How is the increase of 1 not a modifier?

If it is not a modifier what rules are you using to apply that increase to the model?

They are Str 9 with hammers, making them Str 10 is a house rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
its not a modifier to a characteristic, its a profile change. Their profile will be str 5 before modifiers when on TWC

they are str 10 with hammers

every tourney rules it this way, its RAW and how its played, people who say otherwise are claiming there is literally no way to change a base profile and it follows that they are arguing that the profile itself is a set modifier if they claim such.

its an increase in the base profile by raw, not a modifier to the base profile as some like to argue. their argument again, leads to the claim that a base stat on a profile can be a modifier in of itself, which is wrong. while in *english* the word increase may be similar enough to modifier to warrant some legitimacy to the argument, in 40k it does not, its an increase to the base profile by RAW


ITC FAQ also goes with the 10 ruling.

How is a profile change not a modifier???

How is an increase of 1 not a modifier???

Wolf Lords are Str 9 (Str4 Increase of 1 for the mount, Times 2 for the Power fist or thunderhammer).

Multiple modifiers tells us what order to apply things when we have multiple modifiers.

How is the increase of 1 not a modifier?

If it is not a modifier what rules are you using to apply that increase to the model?

They are Str 9 with hammers, making them Str 10 is a house rule.

I'd like to add something to this.
If it is not a modifier, that means the +1T isn't either.
You're going to suffer Instant Death against S8 if that is the case.
Instant Death is determined against modified toughness.

If you follow Multiple Modifiers, you multiply (x2) then add.(+1). You come out at S9.
Some people say you modify the base characteristic, but there hasn't been a "base characteristic modifier" in a few editions from what I've heard.

Previously they had an FAQ to say they were S10.
Now? No. There's been a new codex out since then with no clarification.
It's basically debated. One side says it's S10, one says S9.

While the above is an obvious pointer as to where I stand, someone else will feel I'm wrong. To them, I am. To me, they're wrong.
At the end of the day, we can argue this back and forth until we're blue in the face. Your best bet is to make your own judgement with your group/opponent. Otherwise, roll off for your interpretation and play it like that.

This has been done to death, and I believe the last one got locked.

There's no such thing as a "profile change".
There are only modifiers.

Last edition there was a concept for changing the base profile, no longer in this edition. It's not a rule found anywhere, only modifiers cover this.

There are no rules to support it as a change to the base profile, or faq stating such. It is wargear that modifies stats with bonuses. The profile for TWC includes the modifier already, just like the profile for swiftclaws includes the toughness modifier from their bike.

What tournaments house rule as an errata has nothing to do with the rules as written as many tournaments modify and change existing rules to fit how the tournament FAQ committee feels 40k should be played.

Just to say, this will never be resolved without an FAQ.. pages and pages go on about this topic.

RAW it is pretty clear its Str 9 RAI who knows. talk it over with your opponent, or 4+ it. simples, lock thread move on

This topic has been discussed numerous times without resolution. This thread should be locked before it devolves into another "yes it is! no it isn't!".

So would crushing claw be in the same frame then?

This thread again?

As stated this/related topics is something of a sore point.

There are a fair few threads on this topic that you might to search out and have a read through if you desire to acquaint yourself with the various POVs, but as there has been no need FAQ or info I'm going to lock this so we don't go through the same arguments again.

And again.

And again.