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I was thinking about this the other day....while I was doing some research about time theory.

The Warp space was a place of balance and peaceful space before Chaos took over and turn the Warp into what it is currently in 40K,... which is now the Realm of Chaos, it is a place of madness and time doesn't exist... and 4 chaos gods are the masters.

Real quick definition so you don't get mixed up.
The Warp: I will call the Warp as in the warp space before Chaos came into exist in that space.
Realm of Chaos: Realm of Chaos is the Warp space after Chaos took over.
Chaos: Chaos are chaos entities and NOT the 4 gods(yet)... just part of it or forming up to become it.

Question: Does time exist in the Warp before Chaos? Please provide proof if you know. To me it has never been stated that in the Warp (before Chaos), time doesn't exist. This could be a "Chaos did it" kind of thing. So I think time existed in the Warp before Chaos turned the warp upside down.

THE IMAGINARY TIME THEORY

What if the 40K universe (what the fluff is based on, the whole lore) is just an Imaginary time that happened during the creation of Chaos? What I mean is when Chaos came to exists, Chaos caused Imaginary Time on date X of the real time. This explains everything.

This concept is a bit complicated if you do not understand quantum mechanics and physics or Imaginary Time concept.

This explain why in the Realm of Chaos, time doesn't exist and Chaos always existed in it.
Yet, in real time... Chaos only exists when it is born.

Example... Slaanesh always existed in the Realm of Chaos (not the Warp). Slaanesh finally exist in the Material Realm when Eldar gave birth to it during 30,000AD and became sentient being in the Realm of Chaos.

This Imaginary Time explained the possibility of time travel and the idea of time does not exist in the realm of Chaos.

Lets assume that Chaos gods came to exist in 1,300AD, I will call this Date Y. I think old fluff stated that Chaos came to exist during the middle age. This date Y is not some important, but if the old fluff is correct.. Chaos was created around 1,000 AD - 1,500 AD.

Again, this fit into my Imaginary Time theory.... I always wonder why Chaos gods didn't exist during the millions and millions of years before human even existed. There were billions of worlds with countless xenos giving out emotions and yet... only human came to exist and cause the creation of Chaos.

The Shaman story: The Shaman souls were be eaten in the Warp by the chaos (during Chaos Infancy stage). This is the beginning of Chaos that came into existence ... This Date X must have happen sometime around 1,000,000 BC to 100,000 BC. So this explained why Eldar and Orks who existed millions before this had nothing to do with feeding Chaos emotions.

Chaos is related to Human... it might have started out as small "evil" Warp entities and ate a few Shaman souls. The Shaman souls are related to human. The powerful Shaman souls might have changed the “evil” warp entity and gave it more powers, and it became the infancy of Chaos. Chaos continues to grow more powerful the more it consumed Shaman souls and humans.
Once Chaos existed, it spread through out the galaxy and the 3 Chaos gods came into exist around Date Y. Slaanesh was Eldar Chaos gods out right, but the creation of Chaos came from Human or more likely from Shaman.

Date X is when Imaginary Time took place. Once this time took place, everything in 40k from that point on make sense…

My last post, it seems like I was talking about the Warp and Realm of Chaos. Actually the focus should be on the IMAGINARY TIME THEORY. I was just explaining how this Imaginary Time could and where it have taken place.

If this is all the product of the Imaginary Time, everything from Date X to 40,0000 AD is not even related in the real time line. It is all in its own time and only takes a space of the real time in that Date X. More than likely, in the Real Time... Chaos have already been defeated by the Shaman and there might not even have been the need for the New Man.

I hope you understand my theory. Feel free to ask or contradict, I can't find any holes, but good to know if there is.

Don't duplicate posts, you just copy-pasted your last thread into this one. It counts as spam. If you want to change the title of your thread just go to your first post (the very first one) and edit it and in the subject title just add the "The Imaginary Time Theory" to it.

 Grimskul wrote:
Don't duplicate posts, you just copy-pasted your last thread into this one. It counts as spam. If you want to change the title of your thread just go to your first post (the very first one) and edit it and in the subject title just add the "The Imaginary Time Theory" to it.

I want to change the title of the other post. The title will cause confusion about the discussion. This is a much better title and I hope I explain it better here.

It is very weird, I can't change the title and some edit that I did, didn't happen. Something is wrong with that thread.

MOD can closed the last thread or delete it.

Ah, well. It's too late now I guess. But for future reference, if you want to change the title you have to edit the post you started with. After clicking the edit button in the right hand corner of the post, you should be taken to an edit screen showing you the message body, right above it should be a bar with your Subject title in it, that's where you can edit your thread title. Make sure you press the submit button after you're done. You can preview it too to see what it looks like.

Next time, don't spam stuff, just change the title/flag the post if you can't figure out how to do it.

And learn to use appropriate grammar, your current attempts are a hideous mockery of the language, and you agreed in creating your account to not do that. Your next post should conform to that agreement. Take your time posting it, reread it multiple times, really just put some effort into it.

 Grimskul wrote:
Ah, well. It's too late now I guess. But for future reference, if you want to change the title you have to edit the post you started with. After clicking the edit button in the right hand corner of the post, you should be taken to an edit screen showing you the message body, right above it should be a bar with your Subject title in it, that's where you can edit your thread title. Make sure you press the submit button after you're done. You can preview it too to see what it looks like.

Yeah I did all of that and didn't work. In fact, I just went to try it again, and still didn't work.

sorry for the dup. threads


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 motyak wrote:
Next time, don't spam stuff, just change the title/flag the post if you can't figure out how to do it.

And learn to use appropriate grammar, your current attempts are a hideous mockery of the language, and you agreed in creating your account to not do that. Your next post should conform to that agreement. Take your time posting it, reread it multiple times, really just put some effort into it.

Yeah... i'm going to use Word man..I hate Dakkadakka auto correction.

Again, I can change it. I change it... then click submit... and nothing happens.

Chaos being "outside of time" makes literally no sense. The Chaos Gods don't function in any way that suggests they are non-linear beings. Time absolutely matters to Daemons, which is particularly evident in the number of them who have specific rivalries with individuals existing in the Materium (mostly Space Marines). There's also that Daemons are banished for a given length of time - if there was no time in the Warp, this would be utterly meaningless.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Chaos being "outside of time" makes literally no sense. The Chaos Gods don't function in any way that suggests they are non-linear beings. Time absolutely matters to Daemons, which is particularly evident in the number of them who have specific rivalries with individuals existing in the Materium (mostly Space Marines). There's also that Daemons are banished for a given length of time - if there was no time in the Warp, this would be utterly meaningless.

Except then there's how Slaanesh created itself, and the Warp does not respect any laws of realities. Either it doesn't follow causality at all, or time flows in a chaotic fashion.

Although technically, there is no time at all in the warp- there's no space-time there to begin with. Time as we know it functions because of relativity and distortions in space-time. Of course this largely factors into how the Warp is unreality. It is a separate universe with an entirely different set of laws governing it due to forming by itself as another universe. We can't even truly comprehend how it would even function given that there's no reason to even believe that basic mathematics work in the warp.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Chaos being "outside of time" makes literally no sense. The Chaos Gods don't function in any way that suggests they are non-linear beings. Time absolutely matters to Daemons, which is particularly evident in the number of them who have specific rivalries with individuals existing in the Materium (mostly Space Marines). There's also that Daemons are banished for a given length of time - if there was no time in the Warp, this would be utterly meaningless.

This is why the Imaginary Time Theory makes sense of everything.

In this context you used the Warp and Chaos warp together… which confuse the meaning of your intention.

My theory is based on Stephen Hawking Theory of Imaginary Time.

My proposal is that the Warp is linear based like normal time and is in a way parallel to the Material plane.

Chaos took over and the Warp became Realm of Chaos Warp, which has no more time. This instantly caused the past, present (the time of date X), and the future emotions and thoughts to exist in the Realm of Chaos. The real time line or true time line is no longer part of this Imaginary Time and all future emotions and thoughts of the Imaginary Time line exist and can never be change. This is just the emotions and thoughts in the Realm of Chaos, it has nothing to do with the material realm.

The Material Realm that exist parallel with the Realm of Chaos is in the Imaginary Time Line, this is the time line that 40K exist in.

The Real Time line… is what we don’t know. We are not playing that time line.

Chaos created this Imaginary Time Line, and in a way they are the creator of the universe. This doesn’t mean that Chaos controls everything or if the Material realm finally beat Chaos, … everything will cease to exist. This time line is as real as anything.



Man.. … there is no way you guys are understanding my theory unless you understand Hawking’s Theory of Imaginary Time.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:


Except then there's how Slaanesh created itself, and the Warp does not respect any laws of realities. Either it doesn't follow causality at all, or time flows in a chaotic fashion.

Although technically, there is no time at all in the warp- there's no space-time there to begin with. Time as we know it functions because of relativity and distortions in space-time. Of course this largely factors into how the Warp is unreality. It is a separate universe with an entirely different set of laws governing it due to forming by itself as another universe. We can't even truly comprehend how it would even function given that there's no reason to even believe that basic mathematics work in the warp.

I disagree about the Warp and no time. I think there are time in the warp, but no time in Realm of Chaos. There are two different concepts and please use the correct terms so I know what you are talking about.

I will assume (like the majority) that you see no distinction between the Warp and Realm of Chaos and that Chaos has always existed in the Warp.

This is why my theory of Imaginary Time is important to this discussion. When apply Hawking’s Imaginary Time Theory… everything in 40K makes sense.

When ITT (Imaginary Time Theory) is applied to the setting, it justified just about all the puzzle and solved the mysteries of the warp, Realm of Chaos, Shaman, and the beginning of other xenos deities. It also explain why the Realm of Chaos, there is no time and everything that ever was and ever will be is there.

I understand Hawkins theory of imaginary time, I just think you are over complicating something that doesn't need to be complicated at all. I think you misunderstand what the warp is, and therefore have placed a conplicated understanding on it that you already do know about. There has to be time in both the warp and RoC as you put it, even though the RoC is only one part of the warp.

 Rippy wrote:
I understand Hawkins theory of imaginary time, I just think you are over complicating something that doesn't need to be complicated at all. I think you misunderstand what the warp is, and therefore have placed a conplicated understanding on it that you already do know about. There has to be time in both the warp and RoC as you put it, even though the RoC is only one part of the warp.

But that is not my point.

My point is, the warp has time and RoC has no time. Chaos caused the imaginary time to happened; there for, they became the primer of the universe.....the warp became their play ground and the warp also became their realm of chaos. This shift of power came into existence because they are the primer of the imaginary time...they are in the 5th dimension and can move about in time.nothing can move in time unless chaos help them, willingly or not. Chaos has the knowledge of all emotions that has ever existed and will ever existed in this imaginary time.....they created this imagery time.

Dude, I cannot understand for the life of me what you are suggesting here. Could you please try and simplify this whole thing, using ONLY standard terminology and standard 40k theories/terms?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dude, I cannot understand for the life of me what you are suggesting here. Could you please try and simplify this whole thing, using ONLY standard terminology and standard 40k theories/terms?

I know this is a difficult subject. This might be a bit long because I am using real science to mix with fiction… but it actually makes a lot of sense.



Fist let me explain the real life universe. Please understand that I am not a astrophysics by profession or any of that great science profession… so I do not have all the right words, but I have the crux of the theory. For this discussion, it should be fine.

Our universe has 4 dimensions. 1D, 2D, 3D or Height, Width, and Depth. The 4th is Time.

For example: A dot on a paper is just 1D. You draw a square, it is now 2D. Then you draw a cube, it becomes 3D. Now how can this cube exist and move around … unless there is 4D which is Time. I think most understand this part.

Big Bang and UT1
Our Universe has the Big Bang at around 15billion years ago. Before that is unknowable, so lets don’t talk about it. I will call that date Universe Time 1 or UT1. This is a concept and not to scale of 15 billion years. The Big Bang created 4 dimensions and it has been expanding that dimension since UT1. Now lets assume the Milkyway galaxy came to be UT3 (what ever that date is … example… maybe it was 10 billion years ago). Then in 2015 at the present… and lets call that UT5, so we can say that at UT 5 the universe is 15 billion years old. At UT3 the Universe is 10 billion years old. At UT10… maybe it is 45 billion years old.

The Universe is finite and it will reach that end time and stop expanding and will collapse. Lets call that date UT10. So from the time chart… it is a loop… UT 1 …UT2, UT3… etc…. at UT10 end…. But then a new Big Bang will start and everything will be at UT1.

What is Imaginary Time by Hawking? As I explained above… you see the time chart from UT1 to UT10. This is how the time chart works…from left is UT1 and the far end on the right is UT10. We are talking about universe time not gravity time such as black hole where you stay young and people at home …they have age and are older…no. This is the time of the whole universe. We are in the UT time system and we can not move forward or backward. We will always travel with the time. We can not break the time … however… there is a trick or a theory…

The Imaginary Time (IT)
The time chart consider from left to right. From that chart.. you only see left to right… what about going top to bottom of that time? Like creating a 3D in time. Meaning that at UT2 you can have UT2 top which is a UT2top+1 or UT2 bottom -1 The scale will also be the same. So UT2 top will go up to UT2 top 10 or UT2 bottom -1. Confusing right?
I will type it out.
UT1 UT2 UT3 UT4 UT5 UT6 UT7 UT8 UT9 UT10

Each will also have the same top and bottom, but not reaching more than 10 or less than 1.

So at UT1

Top UT2 to UT10
Bottom is zero

At UT2

Top start at UT3 to UT10
Bottom UT1

Make sense?

So if IT were created for human at UT5 (2015) … and you are not the person who is the Primer (the one who cause this time to happen) … your life will be normal and the same. This universe will end at UTtop 10 the same as UT10. However, if you are the Primer of this IT… chances are you can travel to UTtop10 or UTbottom1 or anywhere in this IT because you created it. You have become the 5th dimension traveler. This IT in real time could only be 1 second… so it is not even the size of UT time. So if you made IT time in Jan. 12, 2015 at 12:25pm that time is your universe. I could also make IT time in Jan 12, 2015 at 12:26pm and we would never connect. If you and I are the only people who did this in the universe…there are now 3 time line going on. Your time, my time, and the real time.

The reason why this is not some alternate universe theory or dimension is because the theory is based on space being 3D, so Time should and could be 3D also.

That is the crux of Imaginary Time.

Now how is this related to the Warp.

I’m going to remind you a bit from the Fluff again. It is important to understand from the fluff that The Warp is just another universe connected to the Material universe. The Warp is peaceful, blah blah blah. Peaceful is the word.

To bring everything together using Big Bang and the Warp.

Big Bang starts the creation of the universe and also the Warp is created.

Life … blah blah balh.. and the warp now has emotions. Again, according to the fluff.. all life feed the warp.. even animals and plants. So the Warp is peaceful and balance.

Note: I was talking about the Universe.

Now lets talk about the Milkyway Galaxy.

The warp is peaceful just as is in the universe.

Then Old ones came and War in heavens … blah blah… Warp is still peaceful even if the material plane were at war in the galaxy.

The Eldar created gods in the warp and Orks too… I’m sure there were other gods in the warp as well. Yet this Warp is a peaceful place… each gods had their “land” or sphere of influence and there might be battle in the warp… but it was “natural” in the warp. Time flows in the Warp like the universe as normal.

Even during the Enslaver plague… the Warp was peaceful… it is like if we have locust plague in real life.. the earth is still normal… just the area that got effected is damage, but a natural damage. The Enslaver Plauge was deadly… but it didn’t mess with the warp space. It was still a Warp space.

Then Shaman came to be on Earth/ Terra. They were human with psychic and they are some of the most power psyker in the galaxy. Their soul were some of the most powerful because they can be reincarnated. Anyway…Warp entity (Little Chaos at infancy stage) ate them and gained super power from their souls. This warp entity became Chaos. Once This Warp entity took Chaos form…(not gods yet) this Chaos was a new plague… they cause or created Imaginary Time.

This Imaginary Time is what the time line in 40K follows now.

We do not know what happened in Real Time to the Shaman or to the Eldar or if Slaanesh will ever exist because we are now in Imaginary Time.

Because Chaos took over as Primer and they are now the cause of this Imaginary Time… and they are also creature of the Warp. The Warp is now The Realm of Chaos.

In this Imaginary time, in RoC everything thoughts and emotions that have existed and will ever existed are all presented in the RoC. The warp time has stopped, but every emotions are there from UT1 to UT10. All are in the RoC. This is why Slaanesh always existed in this RoC. The gods play their great game and they might be aware of UT10 or not.. they might not even care. The RoC time is not going forward.. .but the material time is. Note.. only in RoC can the gods travel in time, but it is not really traveling because they are pulling future emotions or thoughts to them. Or bring old thoughts or emotions from the past to them.

Reminder… This is why Chaos gods and Eldar gods didn’t exist together. But now with this Imaginary Time… from the Eldar god POV…Chaos took over the warp and war broke out between them. Chaos now control the Warp or is now Realm of Chaos and they dictate the rules…which is full of madness and insanity…

I hope this makes sense.

Hmm, that was actually very well explained! Using the locust plague as an example was a nice touch.

That said, I'm not sure I'm ready to subscribe to the theory yet. It seems like the Warp is more akin to a parallel universe that is directly influenced by thoughts and emotions in ours. That means a plague caused by our nascent emotions would also just cause localized damage, albeit on a larger scale (infecting the portion of the Warp that is connected to our galaxy).

Imaginary time assumes that a plague would cause a divergence in our timeline rather than it being just a localized plague but that seems very arbitrary. Why does the birth of Chaos need to have an effect on the timeline? It could have just changed the peaceful nature of the Warp locally (like a storm in the ocean) but there's no reason to assume there's been a shift in the 4th dimension.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Hmm, that was actually very well explained! Using the locust plague as an example was a nice touch.

That said, I'm not sure I'm ready to subscribe to the theory yet. It seems like the Warp is more akin to a parallel universe that is directly influenced by thoughts and emotions in ours. That means a plague caused by our nascent emotions would also just cause localized damage, albeit on a larger scale (infecting the portion of the Warp that is connected to our galaxy).

Imaginary time assumes that a plague would cause a divergence in our timeline rather than it being just a localized plague but that seems very arbitrary. Why does the birth of Chaos need to have an effect on the timeline? It could have just changed the peaceful nature of the Warp locally (like a storm in the ocean) but there's no reason to assume there's been a shift in the 4th dimension.

I cam up with the IT theory because I can’t explain how chaos gods have always existed in the Warp and how come Eldar or Ork gods didn’t know about chaos gods millions of years ago. I just couldn’t except the concept of there is no time in Realm Of Chaos. So I had to figure how the no time can work…. Because chaos created the IT and they became the master of this time line.

However, ….

If The Warp is peaceful space… and Chaos is just another plague like Enslaver millions of years ago…. Then Chaos took over the Milky way galaxy, Chaos can still twist the Warp into RoC. In RoC time doesn’t exist so everything exist at the same time. Yeah! So this can make sense too and we don’t have to use IT theory. So RoC is not the Warp as I explained … but a twisted version of what the Warp should be. So in RoC, Slaanesh exist since the beginning conception of RoC NOT the beginning of the Warp. If there is another Chaos god that hasn’t come out yet… but will arrive in 50,000AD… he is also here in RoC. Eldar and Ork gods didn’t know about Chaos because Chaos just came to be about 60,000 years ago… This makes sense also.


BTW – what feed Eldar and Ork gods? Is it emotion or worship?

 david choe wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dude, I cannot understand for the life of me what you are suggesting here. Could you please try and simplify this whole thing, using ONLY standard terminology and standard 40k theories/terms?

I know this is a difficult subject. This might be a bit long because I am using real science to mix with fiction… but it actually makes a lot of sense.



Fist let me explain the real life universe. Please understand that I am not a astrophysics by profession or any of that great science profession… so I do not have all the right words, but I have the crux of the theory. For this discussion, it should be fine.

Our universe has 4 dimensions. 1D, 2D, 3D or Height, Width, and Depth. The 4th is Time.

For example: A dot on a paper is just 1D. You draw a square, it is now 2D. Then you draw a cube, it becomes 3D. Now how can this cube exist and move around … unless there is 4D which is Time. I think most understand this part.

Big Bang and UT1
Our Universe has the Big Bang at around 15billion years ago. Before that is unknowable, so lets don’t talk about it. I will call that date Universe Time 1 or UT1. This is a concept and not to scale of 15 billion years. The Big Bang created 4 dimensions and it has been expanding that dimension since UT1. Now lets assume the Milkyway galaxy came to be UT3 (what ever that date is … example… maybe it was 10 billion years ago). Then in 2015 at the present… and lets call that UT5, so we can say that at UT 5 the universe is 15 billion years old. At UT3 the Universe is 10 billion years old. At UT10… maybe it is 45 billion years old.

The Universe is finite and it will reach that end time and stop expanding and will collapse. Lets call that date UT10. So from the time chart… it is a loop… UT 1 …UT2, UT3… etc…. at UT10 end…. But then a new Big Bang will start and everything will be at UT1.

What is Imaginary Time by Hawking? As I explained above… you see the time chart from UT1 to UT10. This is how the time chart works…from left is UT1 and the far end on the right is UT10. We are talking about universe time not gravity time such as black hole where you stay young and people at home …they have age and are older…no. This is the time of the whole universe. We are in the UT time system and we can not move forward or backward. We will always travel with the time. We can not break the time … however… there is a trick or a theory…

The Imaginary Time (IT)
The time chart consider from left to right. From that chart.. you only see left to right… what about going top to bottom of that time? Like creating a 3D in time. Meaning that at UT2 you can have UT2 top which is a UT2top+1 or UT2 bottom -1 The scale will also be the same. So UT2 top will go up to UT2 top 10 or UT2 bottom -1. Confusing right?
I will type it out.
UT1 UT2 UT3 UT4 UT5 UT6 UT7 UT8 UT9 UT10

Each will also have the same top and bottom, but not reaching more than 10 or less than 1.

So at UT1

Top UT2 to UT10
Bottom is zero

At UT2

Top start at UT3 to UT10
Bottom UT1

Make sense?

So if IT were created for human at UT5 (2015) … and you are not the person who is the Primer (the one who cause this time to happen) … your life will be normal and the same. This universe will end at UTtop 10 the same as UT10. However, if you are the Primer of this IT… chances are you can travel to UTtop10 or UTbottom1 or anywhere in this IT because you created it. You have become the 5th dimension traveler. This IT in real time could only be 1 second… so it is not even the size of UT time. So if you made IT time in Jan. 12, 2015 at 12:25pm that time is your universe. I could also make IT time in Jan 12, 2015 at 12:26pm and we would never connect. If you and I are the only people who did this in the universe…there are now 3 time line going on. Your time, my time, and the real time.

The reason why this is not some alternate universe theory or dimension is because the theory is based on space being 3D, so Time should and could be 3D also.

That is the crux of Imaginary Time.

Now how is this related to the Warp.

I’m going to remind you a bit from the Fluff again. It is important to understand from the fluff that The Warp is just another universe connected to the Material universe. The Warp is peaceful, blah blah blah. Peaceful is the word.

To bring everything together using Big Bang and the Warp.

Big Bang starts the creation of the universe and also the Warp is created.

Life … blah blah balh.. and the warp now has emotions. Again, according to the fluff.. all life feed the warp.. even animals and plants. So the Warp is peaceful and balance.

Note: I was talking about the Universe.

Now lets talk about the Milkyway Galaxy.

The warp is peaceful just as is in the universe.

Then Old ones came and War in heavens … blah blah… Warp is still peaceful even if the material plane were at war in the galaxy.

The Eldar created gods in the warp and Orks too… I’m sure there were other gods in the warp as well. Yet this Warp is a peaceful place… each gods had their “land” or sphere of influence and there might be battle in the warp… but it was “natural” in the warp. Time flows in the Warp like the universe as normal.

Even during the Enslaver plague… the Warp was peaceful… it is like if we have locust plague in real life.. the earth is still normal… just the area that got effected is damage, but a natural damage. The Enslaver Plauge was deadly… but it didn’t mess with the warp space. It was still a Warp space.

Then Shaman came to be on Earth/ Terra. They were human with psychic and they are some of the most power psyker in the galaxy. Their soul were some of the most powerful because they can be reincarnated. Anyway…Warp entity (Little Chaos at infancy stage) ate them and gained super power from their souls. This warp entity became Chaos. Once This Warp entity took Chaos form…(not gods yet) this Chaos was a new plague… they cause or created Imaginary Time.

This Imaginary Time is what the time line in 40K follows now.

We do not know what happened in Real Time to the Shaman or to the Eldar or if Slaanesh will ever exist because we are now in Imaginary Time.

Because Chaos took over as Primer and they are now the cause of this Imaginary Time… and they are also creature of the Warp. The Warp is now The Realm of Chaos.

In this Imaginary time, in RoC everything thoughts and emotions that have existed and will ever existed are all presented in the RoC. The warp time has stopped, but every emotions are there from UT1 to UT10. All are in the RoC. This is why Slaanesh always existed in this RoC. The gods play their great game and they might be aware of UT10 or not.. they might not even care. The RoC time is not going forward.. .but the material time is. Note.. only in RoC can the gods travel in time, but it is not really traveling because they are pulling future emotions or thoughts to them. Or bring old thoughts or emotions from the past to them.

Reminder… This is why Chaos gods and Eldar gods didn’t exist together. But now with this Imaginary Time… from the Eldar god POV…Chaos took over the warp and war broke out between them. Chaos now control the Warp or is now Realm of Chaos and they dictate the rules…which is full of madness and insanity…

I hope this makes sense.

Nope, you have absolutely succeeded in helping me understand just what the feth you were on about!
I personally disagree with the theory for general reasons, but I shan't dismiss yours, as you seem to have put a lot of thought into it.

 david choe wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Hmm, that was actually very well explained! Using the locust plague as an example was a nice touch.

That said, I'm not sure I'm ready to subscribe to the theory yet. It seems like the Warp is more akin to a parallel universe that is directly influenced by thoughts and emotions in ours. That means a plague caused by our nascent emotions would also just cause localized damage, albeit on a larger scale (infecting the portion of the Warp that is connected to our galaxy).

Imaginary time assumes that a plague would cause a divergence in our timeline rather than it being just a localized plague but that seems very arbitrary. Why does the birth of Chaos need to have an effect on the timeline? It could have just changed the peaceful nature of the Warp locally (like a storm in the ocean) but there's no reason to assume there's been a shift in the 4th dimension.

I cam up with the IT theory because I can’t explain how chaos gods have always existed in the Warp and how come Eldar or Ork gods didn’t know about chaos gods millions of years ago. I just couldn’t except the concept of there is no time in Realm Of Chaos. So I had to figure how the no time can work…. Because chaos created the IT and they became the master of this time line.

However, ….

If The Warp is peaceful space… and Chaos is just another plague like Enslaver millions of years ago…. Then Chaos took over the Milky way galaxy, Chaos can still twist the Warp into RoC. In RoC time doesn’t exist so everything exist at the same time. Yeah! So this can make sense too and we don’t have to use IT theory. So RoC is not the Warp as I explained … but a twisted version of what the Warp should be. So in RoC, Slaanesh exist since the beginning conception of RoC NOT the beginning of the Warp. If there is another Chaos god that hasn’t come out yet… but will arrive in 50,000AD… he is also here in RoC. Eldar and Ork gods didn’t know about Chaos because Chaos just came to be about 60,000 years ago… This makes sense also.


BTW – what feed Eldar and Ork gods? Is it emotion or worship?

Well... maybe they did know about them but chose to worship other beings... much like earth's polythiestic distant past

 david choe wrote:
BTW – what feed Eldar and Ork gods? Is it emotion or worship?

Don't forget that these 'gods' don't necessarily require active worship. They are like a gestalt consciousness that mirrors the species which created them and are passively and actively 'fed'. In the Eldar and Ork cases, their gods were benign warp manifestations (even in the case of Khaine murdering Eldanesh) whereas the Chaos Gods, as created by humans were destructive and corrupting and then Slaanesh exists in the same way. So despite it being possible for other races besides humans to create Chaos gods they just haven't (except Slaanesh) or at least none then currently exist (in the Eisenhorn trilogy (Malleus if I recall rightly) they discover a planet which is the tomb for a dead Chaos God) and also that humans seem to have jumped strait to creating Chaos Gods rather than anything more benign first, as with the Eldar.

I think there is much merit in the theory and a recent example would be Vengeful Spirit which sees Horus enter the Realm of Chaos for an indeterminate number of centuries whilst only moments pass for those in the material universe. We also know that ships within the Warp can arrive at their destination immediately, millennia before they left, millennia after they left, et cetera not to mention that human ships project a bubble of reality and therefore 'ordinary' time around themselves. There is also the concept of the Deep Warp, something that human ships get closer to travelling as an example, where Tau ships only skim the very edge/shallows of the Warp.

 Gogsnik wrote:

 david choe wrote:
BTW – what feed Eldar and Ork gods? Is it emotion or worship?

Don't forget that these 'gods' don't necessarily require active worship. They are like a gestalt consciousness that mirrors the species which created them and are passively and actively 'fed'. In the Eldar and Ork cases, their gods were benign warp manifestations (even in the case of Khaine murdering Eldanesh) whereas the Chaos Gods, as created by humans were destructive and corrupting and then Slaanesh exists in the same way. So despite it being possible for other races besides humans to create Chaos gods they just haven't (except Slaanesh) or at least none then currently exist (in the Eisenhorn trilogy (Malleus if I recall rightly) they discover a planet which is the tomb for a dead Chaos God) and also that humans seem to have jumped strait to creating Chaos Gods rather than anything more benign first, as with the Eldar.

I think there is much merit in the theory and a recent example would be Vengeful Spirit which sees Horus enter the Realm of Chaos for an indeterminate number of centuries whilst only moments pass for those in the material universe. We also know that ships within the Warp can arrive at their destination immediately, millennia before they left, millennia after they left, et cetera not to mention that human ships project a bubble of reality and therefore 'ordinary' time around themselves. There is also the concept of the Deep Warp, something that human ships get closer to travelling as an example, where Tau ships only skim the very edge/shallows of the Warp.

No, they appear to be older. I'll have to check, but I remember reading how Khaine was merely an aspect of Khorne.

I’m glade somebody understand the madness in my brain.

This IT theory… I would think that Tzeentch could create IT at many points in time. This is how he can reach into the Multi-verse and plot against himself with out knowing that he did it because other Tzeentch from another IT came to his time to plot against him too.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gogsnik wrote:

 david choe wrote:
BTW – what feed Eldar and Ork gods? Is it emotion or worship?

Don't forget that these 'gods' don't necessarily require active worship. They are like a gestalt consciousness that mirrors the species which created them and are passively and actively 'fed'. In the Eldar and Ork cases, their gods were benign warp manifestations (even in the case of Khaine murdering Eldanesh) whereas the Chaos Gods, as created by humans were destructive and corrupting and then Slaanesh exists in the same way. So despite it being possible for other races besides humans to create Chaos gods they just haven't (except Slaanesh) or at least none then currently exist (in the Eisenhorn trilogy (Malleus if I recall rightly) they discover a planet which is the tomb for a dead Chaos God) and also that humans seem to have jumped strait to creating Chaos Gods rather than anything more benign first, as with the Eldar.

I think there is much merit in the theory and a recent example would be Vengeful Spirit which sees Horus enter the Realm of Chaos for an indeterminate number of centuries whilst only moments pass for those in the material universe. We also know that ships within the Warp can arrive at their destination immediately, millennia before they left, millennia after they left, et cetera not to mention that human ships project a bubble of reality and therefore 'ordinary' time around themselves. There is also the concept of the Deep Warp, something that human ships get closer to travelling as an example, where Tau ships only skim the very edge/shallows of the Warp.

But what is the Crux of it. Orks and Eldar... they have power from their subjects right? Unlike Chaos... it is emotions of all being in the galaxy.

I'm asking how do Eldar and Orks gain power or loose power?

I know Chaos... when more emotions are happening, they gain more power... if all the galaxy emotions cease to exist (all life are dead in the galaxy), Chaos will starved and die too.

How does Eldar and Ork gods function in this case. I can never find the explanation. I just assume they gain and loose power by worship and followers... not so much from the emotions.

This is why my other part of my theory is that the Warp is a natural place and when it is "normal" there is no madness and such... other beings exist in there like all other Warp gods. Chaos fethed it all up for everybody.

--------
The Imaginary Time graph that I show and explain is only in 2 D left to right and top and bottom. I didn’t want to get more technical … in real theory… it should be a tesseract graph. Which is even more confusing. This is how Tzeentch from other time line can intersect with this time line and all the madness in the warp of connecting of so many different Imaginary Time Tesseract ….

If you have seen Interstellar, there is a scene that use Hawking theory and apply it. In the Black Hole… you see the Tesseract time graph. Imagine what Tzeentch sees in his version of the Tesseract of the Realm of Chaos.

According to the Chaos Daemons codex the warp and Realm of Chaos are one and the same, there is no separation between the two.

I don't think that the Eldar and Ork Gods have the same reliance on emotion or require worship in the same way. It's not in an Orks nature, although they praise Gork and Mork in their own way, and the Eldar gods are mostly dead. Khaine being more of the physical realm now and Isha being locked away in the Garden of Nurgle. But they also didn't have the same requirement from their children and weren't formed the same way. They, like the Ainur I guess, existed before their Children.

Tears of Isha WD: 105
One night the Goddess Lileath had a dream in which she saw Khaine the War God torn to pieces by a mortal descendant of Kurnous the god of the hunt and Isha the goddess of the harvest. Kurnous and Isha had many children who included immortal gods as well as the very first mortals - the Eldar.

If the Chaos Gods has always been and never been been, then the other denizens of the warp would have always lived with them, and never lived with them. Perhaps because they are, in part, natural warp dwellers, they do not interact with Chaos in the same way, or they always have

It's a confusing matter to be sure.

I believe the quote that Wyzilla is referring to is

WD127
When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way. Then Khorne and Slaanesh clashed headlong, the Blood God fighting to recover the portion of his power that had been robbed from him, Slaanesh driven by his uncontrollable hunger to consume everything in his path. The Bloody Handed God of the Eldar was tossed this way and that, at first grasped by Slaanesh, then tugged back into the compass of Khorne.

Eventually the rage of the Blood God and the passion of the Lord of Pleasure were exhausted, and the boundaries between them were established. Like a leaf in the eye of a hurricane, Kaela Mensha Khaine fell among the calm, down through the Realm of Chaos and into the material universe. As he entered the material universe he divided into many shards of energy, scattering his power so that neither Khorne or Slaanesh could ever find him again. Each shard entered the body of an Eldar, filling the body with his own mind, possessing it, so that it became a virtually indestructible blood-lusting murderer - the material manifestation of the Bloody Handed God. These are the Avatars of the Bloody Handed God.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
According to the Chaos Daemons codex the warp and Realm of Chaos are one and the same, there is no separation between the two.

My Theory suggested that the Warp is not how it was since Chaos took over or it is now a Realm of Chaos.

The distinction is just in the name, The Warp is the dimension and once Chaos took over, it is Realm of Chaos. The "physics" in the warp is no longer the same since Chaos took over.

An analogy is, France is the Warp during WW2. Nazi is Chaos. Nazi took over France... France must obey to Nazi set of rules. The Warp was a place and Chaos took over, now the Warp follows the rules set by Chaos.

But when the Chaos Gods came into existence they always existed. So the Warp has always been under the influence of Chaos even when it was calm...

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But when the Chaos Gods came into existence they always existed. So the Warp has always been under the influence of Chaos even when it was calm...

Not according to the Old Ones and the enslavers and C'tan and Eldar and Orks.

The chaos gods have always existed in the warp precisely as there is no linear time in the warp.

It works best to think of the material universe as a needle/similar floating in a bubble or pool of liquid which represents the warp.

Thusly the powers in the warp can see past/present/future of the material reality. But in doing so -- perhaps even by the act of observation itself -- they can affect changes in the direction of the needle .

This of course changes the "flow" of the warp and so ad infinitum.

From the mortal perspective time is indeed linear. But of course as soon as something happens it "spills" out into the fluid/warp, and therefore becomes outside of the law of linear time.

Hence why Slaanesh can not have existed and always existed in the warp at the same time

 reds8n wrote:

The chaos gods have always existed in the warp precisely as there is no linear time in the warp.

It works best to think of the material universe as a needle/similar floating in a bubble or pool of liquid which represents the warp.

Thusly the powers in the warp can see past/present/future of the material reality. But in doing so -- perhaps even by the act of observation itself -- they can affect changes in the direction of the needle .

This of course changes the "flow" of the warp and so ad infinitum.

From the mortal perspective time is indeed linear. But of course as soon as something happens it "spills" out into the fluid/warp, and therefore becomes outside of the law of linear time.

Hence why Slaanesh can not have existed and always existed in the warp at the same time

My atoms have alway existed since UT1 or the dawn of the universe...I guess you could also say that my make up have always existed and will continue to exist even after I am dead and should continue all the way to end times or UT10.


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A quick reminder of what the Warp is….

The Immaterium: At the time, the Immaterium was unaffected by the psychic emissions of other intelligent races (since there were so few), and so it was a calm and steady realm of existence. .. This was about the time of the Old Ones.

More history from the Old Ones, they caused the creation of the Warp.

(Talking about War with C’tan)
To combat these terrible foes, the Old Ones created new warrior races to battle for them, including the Eldar, the Rashan, the K'nib and the Krork, who may be the ancestors of the Orks. Knowing that the C'tan were vulnerable to psychic energies, the Old Ones designed their warrior species to be psychically linked to the Immaterium. Unfortunately, the raw emotions and collective unconscious beliefs of these new races altered the psychically-active Immaterium, creating their Gods and the daemons of Chaos. The introduction of these warlike and psychic races into the galaxy had the side effect of warping the Immaterium - the war, pain, suffering and destruction of the galaxy unleashed during the conflict was reflected in the Immaterium, literally changing its nature into that of the current chaotic and intrinsically hostile psychic dimension called the Warp. The innocuous entities which had naturally existed in the Immaterium were twisted into voracious and hostile predators. The Old Ones were ultimately devastated by the aftershocks of what their psychically-active creations did to the Warp, and are now believed to have either gone extinct or fled the galaxy. . . .

This is when the 4 gods came to existence and would later became the ruler of the Warp or I prefer to call it Realm of Chaos.

So. . . .

Immaterium –then- Warp (demons and gods came to existence) – then- RoC or (many continue to call it the Warp). The terminology means the same, but for the discussion… it is important to keep it in the context.

This is why I keep on saying that the Immaterium or "Warp" was not a place of madness. It was calm and balance. The Shaman might have even existed during this time because they were enjoying the peaceful and balance of the Immaterium.

The word "Warp" really fits the description of the Immaterium... it "twisted" what the calm Immaterium into a Warp place and many of the entities changed into chaos beings.