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As mentioned in another thread, I haven't played Daemons since 5th edition and they have changed vastly. I've gotten a few games under my belt now and I know how they function, however I am not sure I undestand the top tier lists and what in general, is a competitive Chaos Daemons list these days. I'm talking tournament level ( as I'm participating in one soonish ) not for games among friends.

Here's an example of a list that I see quite a bit with minor variations:

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Bill-Kims-Daemons-4th-Seed.pdf

What is the purpose of the Tzeentch Daemon Princes? What powers do you want for them in these armies? Are they for summoning purposes, or something else? I see these guys in practically every tournament faring list. Is the purpose of the list above for example, to act as a summoning factory, or something else I am not seeing?

Next to that the question above, what are the best tournament builds for Daemons these days? I understand the Daemon factory and some sort of rush list could work. I could potentially face pretty much anything from waveserpent spam to 3 flyrants and whatnot other "fun stuff."

Anyone?

The princes can roll on change, biomancy, telepathy and telekinesis. Usually you'll see them roll on telepathy until you have invis and shrouding (should only take 2 on average) which will give two princes a 2+ re-rollable jink save. Invis does what invis does of course. One or two will normally take pot shots for iron arm and/or endurance for durability. Fateweaver is ridiculously versatile with his powers and of course with his ability to re-roll warp storm and a single d6 per player turn. Typically fateweaver plus a prince will have summoning, and the horrors always will, and if they get possession that's just gravy. The horrors want to turn into a herald/greater daemon.

The purpose of the list is to be incredibly durable and incredibly versatile. In true Tzeentch fashion, they can do what they ned to against different armies.

Most 'top-tier' daemon lists rely on mutiple units of screamers, drones, possibily hounds with support units like horrors/fateweaver and sometimes princes.

The synergy is using divination/biomancy powers to boost the combat and slash power of the FA units. This boosted with grim, fateweaver reroll and daemonology can make the units also very hard to kill. It has excellent board presence and mobility which is key for maelstrom games.

Hey RunicFN,

Of course the question what constitutes a tournamentworthy list, can generate a lot of different answers. For instance these are the last NOVA listst http://daemons40k.blogspot.nl/2014/09/the-nova-chaos-lists.html

In general I think that speed, close combat prowes, toughness (buffs and grimnoire) with (some) summoning, make for good lists.

For me these lists are examples of such lists:
Daemons CAD
Fateweaver
Karanak
HoT, ML3, Disc, Grimnoire
3 Bloodcrushers, Hunter, Axe
10 Pink Horrors
3 Nurglings
8 Screamers
13 Fleshhounds
AD
Be'Lakor
10 Cultists, Flamer
5 Spawn, MoN
11ML 1848

or
CSM CAD
Be´lakor
Sorcerer, Bike, ML3, SF, MB
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
5 Spawn, MoN
Maulerfiend, Lasher Tendrils
Maulerfiend
AD
Fateweaver
11 Pink Horrors
15 Fleshhounds
Soulgrinder, DoS, BT
12ML 1849

less creative but apparently decent would be a flying circus summoning list like this:

Fateweaver
DPoS, ML3, F/A, GR, GR
11 Pink Horrors
3 Nurglings
DPoT, ML3, F/A, Grimnoire
DPoT, ML3, F/A, Staff, GR
AD
Be'lakor
10 Cultists, Flamer
18ML 1849

Cilithan

Thanks for the replies, that opens stuff up a bit. I was thinking of a very similiar list to one of the examples above, so it would appear I'm on the right track.

The list you posted looks pretty old. It says 2014, and I would guess it is early 2014 at that.

So much has changed with the meta since then that a list like this wouldn't do as well as it did in the past.

Tzeentch was big in 6th, but most daemon players are leaning more towards nurgle DPs now.
Flying DPs get neutered in 7th ed. Nurgle DPs hop around the board with their 2+ cover save without the need to take off.

The biggest indicator of the list being dated is the lack of any anti walker choices.

Most daemon lists today make use of Be'lakor, screamers or soul grinders in the hope of being able to deal with an imperial knight.

They would also usually take nurglings or pink horrors for troops, and summon the daemonettes.

The best (by far) daemon list in America is

HQ
Fateweaver 300
Herald of tzeentch- level 3 disc exalted reward 150
Herald of tzeentch- level 3 disc 120
Herald of Nurgle- level 2 greater reward greater locus of fecundity 140
Herald of Nurgle- level 2 greater reward 115

Troops
11 horrors 99
10 horrors 90

Fast
8 screamers 200
8 screamers 200
8 plague drones- venom sting plague ridden with greater reward 401

Inquisitor- 3 servo skills 34

Its not a pick up and play list, but tbh in the hands of a skilled player its literally the best army in the game currently. (I know how outrageous that sounds, but if you talk to any of the top tier american GT players and ask them the current top list, this is what they will point you too).

 krootman. wrote:
The best (by far) daemon list in America is

HQ
Fateweaver 300
Herald of tzeentch- level 3 disc exalted reward 150
Herald of tzeentch- level 3 disc 120
Herald of Nurgle- level 2 greater reward greater locus of fecundity 140
Herald of Nurgle- level 2 greater reward 115

Troops
11 horrors 99
10 horrors 90

Fast
8 screamers 200
8 screamers 200
8 plague drones- venom sting plague ridden with greater reward 401

Inquisitor- 3 servo skills 34

Its not a pick up and play list, but tbh in the hands of a skilled player its literally the best army in the game currently. (I know how outrageous that sounds, but if you talk to any of the top tier american GT players and ask them the current top list, this is what they will point you too).

Ha at least give the man some credit for "the best list in America." That's the list Nick Nanavanti took to LVO. I actually saw someone in the Tyranid thread say the same thing about it. Weird thing is though several 40K bloggers who follow tournaments report Nick as somehow "handicapping" his list against Sean (tyranid player, overall winner of LVO). So is this really the best list in America? Don't get me wrong I love the look of it: A PlagueStar, a ScreamerStar with redundancy, 17 Warp Charges, Fatey to make sure things don't go awry should the winds of chaos blow in the wrong direction. . .it's got all the makings of a great list and has serious shenanigans potential in the hands of a good general. Really would love to try something similar, but I also think there's a lot of different ways to do Daemons nowadays.

 krootman. wrote:
The best (by far) daemon list in America is

HQ
Fateweaver 300
Herald of tzeentch- level 3 disc exalted reward 150
Herald of tzeentch- level 3 disc 120
Herald of Nurgle- level 2 greater reward greater locus of fecundity 140
Herald of Nurgle- level 2 greater reward 115

Troops
11 horrors 99
10 horrors 90

Fast
8 screamers 200
8 screamers 200
8 plague drones- venom sting plague ridden with greater reward 401

Inquisitor- 3 servo skills 34

Its not a pick up and play list, but tbh in the hands of a skilled player its literally the best army in the game currently. (I know how outrageous that sounds, but if you talk to any of the top tier american GT players and ask them the current top list, this is what they will point you too).

I'm probably missing something here but how do the Nurgle Heralds keep up with the Drones in this list? I'm assuming they join that unit.

The plaguedrones make a chain and drag them up the field through consolidation moves.

I'm still not entirely sure why he goes for them over more conventional choices though.

They do slow the unit down, but the Drones just conga line back to the Heralds and slingshot them into combats and generally dominate midfield board control and just generally be almost impossible to kill. The Heralds maybe slow, but guaranteed FNP on that many T5 wounds and possible 4+ FNP and EW on all those models is very much worth it. Not to mention Enfeeble or Iron Arm on Heralds with AP2 weapons being very nasty

Because drones with 3 greater instant death swords and venom stings are frankly god-tier against a lot of other combat deathstars/good units at the moment. Not to mention when you roll up iron arm/endurance you basically can steam roll most armies with them.

Are the greater gifts on the heralds going on greater etherblades or baleswords though?

Both would have their uses.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Are the greater gifts on the heralds going on greater etherblades or baleswords though?

Both would have their uses.

Yeah probably depends on the match up, and that is the beautiful thing about it: you can choose which you want every game

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Are the greater gifts on the heralds going on greater etherblades or baleswords though?

Both would have their uses.

Definitely army dependent, but overall I would take the +1 S AP2 sword. A lot of big guys either have Eternal Warrior or not enough wounds to make the Balesword worth it, unless you run into an all Carnifex army/Dreadknights/etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Definitely consider Flesh Hounds somewhere. I know they were previously mentioned in a list, but seriously, for less than 350 points you get 60 attacks on the charge with 2 wounds each and +1 S on the charge in a max squad of 20.

I always take them with a JuggerHerald rather Karanak, because Karanak takes up a full HQ slot. The Herald can also take an item to give the whole unit Hatred and has a decent AP 2 weapon for challenging characters.

I would just like to throw out there that New Necrons do not gain benefits from their RP rolls with ID weapons. Both Baleswords and Venom Sting (Plague Drones) are ID. Personally I have a lot of fun running DPs of Nurgle with Balesword + Plague Flail Whereas I use the flail to push wounds against blob armies and the Balesword against anything that has multiple wounds.

Things like New Cron Wraiths are a great example of what Ive had much success with, when utilizing the good amount of ID in the Daemon Dex.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Are the greater gifts on the heralds going on greater etherblades or baleswords though?

Both would have their uses.

Definitely army dependent, but overall I would take the +1 S AP2 sword. A lot of big guys either have Eternal Warrior or not enough wounds to make the Balesword worth it, unless you run into an all Carnifex army/Dreadknights/etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Definitely consider Flesh Hounds somewhere. I know they were previously mentioned in a list, but seriously, for less than 350 points you get 60 attacks on the charge with 2 wounds each and +1 S on the charge in a max squad of 20.

I always take them with a JuggerHerald rather Karanak, because Karanak takes up a full HQ slot. The Herald can also take an item to give the whole unit Hatred and has a decent AP 2 weapon for challenging characters.

Herald on Juggernaut >>>> Karanak for rolling with hounds. Karanak doesn't really do much the hounds dont already do well and his Locus isn't as good as Locus of Wrath. with a large squad of Hounds you're often better off multi charging a couple units at once and his Locus is wasted in that regard whereas you're still getting rerolls from Hatred if you take the Herald. I kind of forgot about his special collar (all psykers within 12" perils on any double), and it actually got better with the 7th ed changes to the psychic phase, but it's still rather situational. As you mentioned, the hounds really benefit from the Herald's AP2 weapon when taking on harder targets, and the fact that it has Instant Death on 6's is just icing on the cake. I can't tell you how many times that has pulled through big for me.

I love the Herald + Hounds unit but lately I've been leaving him at home in favor of spending the points on more warp charges or other utility units. Hounds are still great on their own by forcing your opponent to dedicate valuable shooting resources and turns to deal with them or risk the hounds running amok in their backfield or tying up more expensive units. I almost always try to fit at least 10 in a list.

Oh and Kararnak actually counts as a Herald for the purposes of choosing your army so he doesn't have to take up a full HQ slot.

I also think you're spot on about the Aetherblade over the Balesword for most situations.

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Are the greater gifts on the heralds going on greater etherblades or baleswords though?

Both would have their uses.

Definitely army dependent, but overall I would take the +1 S AP2 sword. A lot of big guys either have Eternal Warrior or not enough wounds to make the Balesword worth it, unless you run into an all Carnifex army/Dreadknights/etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Definitely consider Flesh Hounds somewhere. I know they were previously mentioned in a list, but seriously, for less than 350 points you get 60 attacks on the charge with 2 wounds each and +1 S on the charge in a max squad of 20.

I always take them with a JuggerHerald rather Karanak, because Karanak takes up a full HQ slot. The Herald can also take an item to give the whole unit Hatred and has a decent AP 2 weapon for challenging characters.

Herald on Juggernaut >>>> Karanak for rolling with hounds. Karanak doesn't really do much the hounds dont already do well and his Locus isn't as good as Locus of Wrath. with a large squad of Hounds you're often better off multi charging a couple units at once and his Locus is wasted in that regard whereas you're still getting rerolls from Hatred if you take the Herald. I kind of forgot about his special collar (all psykers within 12" perils on any double), and it actually got better with the 7th ed changes to the psychic phase, but it's still rather situational. As you mentioned, the hounds really benefit from the Herald's AP2 weapon when taking on harder targets, and the fact that it has Instant Death on 6's is just icing on the cake. I can't tell you how many times that has pulled through big for me.

I love the Herald + Hounds unit but lately I've been leaving him at home in favor of spending the points on more warp charges or other utility units. Hounds are still great on their own by forcing your opponent to dedicate valuable shooting resources and turns to deal with them or risk the hounds running amok in their backfield or tying up more expensive units. I almost always try to fit at least 10 in a list.

Oh and Kararnak actually counts as a Herald for the purposes of choosing your army so he doesn't have to take up a full HQ slot.

I also think you're spot on about the Aetherblade over the Balesword for most situations.

Really? Is the Karanak an FAQ? Last I checked he was a full HQ slot.

Yeah, his perils and the ability to select a Prey are nice, but kind of meh. Don't forget, on their own, Hounds have a decent 4+ Deny the Witch if they get targeted, so they make great distraction units. I also love the fact that they're so cheap. Like, really, really cheap. The only thing is the Fast Attack slot can get bogged up by Drones and Screamers.

I like the Jugger Herald for a full Hounds squad, but he can add up, where you can throw those points on DPs or Rewards for other guys.

Pg 94 of the Daemons Codex in the box at the top of the page he's listed as one of the options available to the 1-4 selection of Heralds. Fast attack is definitely very crowded for Daemons. Drones, Screamers, Hounds, and Seekers are all excellent in their own ways.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Pg 94 of the Daemons Codex in the box at the top of the page he's listed as one of the options available to the 1-4 selection of Heralds. Fast attack is definitely very crowded for Daemons. Drones, Screamers, Hounds, and Seekers are all excellent in their own ways.

Eh. They're definitely useful, but I don't like Seekers, too fragile, not enough reward for me. The rest all have a little bit of toughness or are fast even if fragile. Seekers just die too quickly to me.