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So it seems like the top tier tournament army in the UK is 4 Iron Priests with 4 cyberwolves each attached to either: Dark Angels bikes (for scout etc), St Celestine (for hit and run), or White Scars comand squad (for Hit and Run and scout) or scout bikers (for Scout). I've been to three tournaments on the trot. All with ETC players at. All won by Wolfstar of one sort or another, and with some other Wolfstar in the top 3.

How best to counter this army? Flyrants are an obvious army. But what other ways does this list go down? Critical seems to be: tanking 2+/3++ with FnP on the unit and 16 minimum ablative wounds on the dogs.

I've been looking at Vindicatora a bit for it, especially BA fast ones. Chews through the dogs quickly and gives you a 1/3 chance of ID. 3 of them is just under 400 pts without siege shields. Another option is crush them under weight of dice, something like a few squads of firewarriors with an Ethereal, etc, forcing them to roll enough dice that the 1s catch up with them eventually.

The problem with any of these shooting solutions is that the smart wolf player will just break up the death star so you can only get at a couple of priests a turn and the rest will still get into combat, which means you have to have durability in your army, either through numbers, high toughness, or invulns with Eternal Warrior. Tzeentch daemons with a few stacked Cursed Earths could be good too, re-rollable 2++ is definitely some staying power.

They do go through stuff pretty fast. The iron priests split off and get five attacks on the charge each - ws5 str 10 ap 1...

I was toying with vindicators earlier. or necron pylons with the Death Ray. Doomsday Arcs.

Its a brutal, brutal army. And with so many mobile independent characters, very strong on scoring at the end of the game too.

It's a very strong unit, I've played vs it a few times now each time with a slightly different loadout. Strongest was 3 iron priests 5twc and a wolf lord. It hurt but luckily I had loads of strength 10 that day. Luck the draw

I tend to play BA or Ig or both together. As other people have said fast vindicators are very good but if the sw list is balanced they will normally pod meltas near your s10 tanks so you need multiples. Ig wise manticores work OK but the ap4 hurts a little but least you have range.

My favourite although sometimes a mad tactic is meeting them head on, mephiston with iron arm endurance, force and forwarning ideally with a group of ss th terminators works really well. Once you have them held charge in some dc and some dc dreads and you will see some carnage

If all else fails take three vultures with punishers and fire 60 S5 tl shots each turn. Weight of fire wins

Hm. Well maybe those tactics work for Blood Angels (I personally think terminators are a terrible idea - the Iron Priests are str 10 ap 1 and have five attacks on the charge each - counter attack too, I believe and all the cyberwolves are rending). But I run Necrons, Eldar and Tau. So we are not really assault armies. And the ones I am seeing at tournaments are much more optimised. They usually have a lot of buffs - FNP, Endurance and a tonne of stormshields.

Be clear. I'm not talking about "balanced lists" with podding meltas. I am talking about the various builds of the horrific wolf deathstar that is chewing through all comers...

20 flayed ones.

i played against a CRAZY wolf star with Hit And Run... Necron durability simply outlasted it. I dont think there is any other army that can put up a fight against it.

Honestly. Flayed ones are cool. But I don't see 20 flayed ones managing to not get destroyed / swept by that unit. The majority of the wolf unit strikes first and removes a fistful of flayed ones. Then tanks on a 2+ (with possible 4+FNP from endurance or regular 5+FNP from allies) then sweeps... I've put two full units of Wraiths with coils into it and removed a couple of wolves and tied it up for two turns. My friend now runs his with hit and run (couple of different allied choices to do this - white scars or celestine).

Weight of fire and kill the support (e.g. allied Psykers) first.

 Kholzerino wrote:
Honestly. Flayed ones are cool. But I don't see 20 flayed ones managing to not get destroyed / swept by that unit. The majority of the wolf unit strikes first and removes a fistful of flayed ones. Then tanks on a 2+ (with possible 4+FNP from endurance or regular 5+FNP from allies) then sweeps... I've put two full units of Wraiths with coils into it and removed a couple of wolves and tied it up for two turns. My friend now runs his with hit and run (couple of different allied choices to do this - white scars or celestine).

Flayed One Pack - Same stats as a Necron Warrior. Same save, same Strength, toughness,initiative, and point cost.
They have 4 S4 AP5 attacks in combat with Shred (each claw counts as a separate weapon).
USR:
Fear
Reanimation Protocols
Deep Strike
Infiltrate

Mathhammer:
100 attacks on the charge:
Hitting on 5s, against T5 Armor 2
33 hits --- 18.5 wounds due to shred ---3 wounds taken

So yeah, not a lot of wounds but in a decurion, they have 4+RP so all in a good fight.

Naaris wrote:

 Kholzerino wrote:
Honestly. Flayed ones are cool. But I don't see 20 flayed ones managing to not get destroyed / swept by that unit. The majority of the wolf unit strikes first and removes a fistful of flayed ones. Then tanks on a 2+ (with possible 4+FNP from endurance or regular 5+FNP from allies) then sweeps... I've put two full units of Wraiths with coils into it and removed a couple of wolves and tied it up for two turns. My friend now runs his with hit and run (couple of different allied choices to do this - white scars or celestine).

Flayed One Pack - Same stats as a Necron Warrior. Same save, same Strength, toughness,initiative, and point cost.
They have 4 S4 AP5 attacks in combat with Shred (each claw counts as a separate weapon).
USR:
Fear
Reanimation Protocols
Deep Strike
Infiltrate

Mathhammer:
100 attacks on the charge:
Hitting on 5s, against T5 Armor 2
33 hits --- 18.5 wounds due to shred ---3 wounds taken

So yeah, not a lot of wounds but in a decurion, they have 4+RP so all in a good fight.

Why are the Flayed Ones hitting on 5s? They should hit on 4s, wound on 5s. So 50 hits, 27.7 wounds, 4.6 wounds taken.

I would not recommend using Flayed Ones to fight Wolfstar, I'd tie them up with something like Wraiths or Scarabs and then work on the rest of the board.

What mission format are these tournaments? Unless they require a really strong ground presence, then I can see the FMC spam that is popular elsewhere giving it problems. Doesn't seem like theres much room for AA in a list like that. That being said, I'm gonna assume you need to do more than late game score/contest in whatever format these Wolfstars are steam rolling since that seems too obvious. Still, flyrants seem good against something like this since they have the mobility to bypass 2+ tanks and get to the Apothecary/Libby that is providing FNP. I can see how a good player would be able to mitigate this with 4 Iron Priests though.

Could you give us a little bit more specifics about what's supporting these Iron Priests? For the White Scars, I'm assuming its a command squad with Khan, an apothecary, and possibly grav guns and/or more storm shields?

You mentioned endurance, but I don't see a list like that being able to pack enough psykers to reliably get endurance (unless Loth's hiding out somewhere) much less cast it against any army with a midding psychic presence.

 Kholzerino wrote:
Honestly. Flayed ones are cool. But I don't see 20 flayed ones managing to not get destroyed / swept by that unit. The majority of the wolf unit strikes first and removes a fistful of flayed ones. Then tanks on a 2+ (with possible 4+FNP from endurance or regular 5+FNP from allies) then sweeps... I've put two full units of Wraiths with coils into it and removed a couple of wolves and tied it up for two turns. My friend now runs his with hit and run (couple of different allied choices to do this - white scars or celestine).

truth

 astro_nomicon wrote:
What mission format are these tournaments? Unless they require a really strong ground presence, then I can see the FMC spam that is popular elsewhere giving it problems. Doesn't seem like theres much room for AA in a list like that. That being said, I'm gonna assume you need to do more than late game score/contest in whatever format these Wolfstars are steam rolling since that seems too obvious. Still, flyrants seem good against something like this since they have the mobility to bypass 2+ tanks and get to the Apothecary/Libby that is providing FNP. I can see how a good player would be able to mitigate this with 4 Iron Priests though.

Could you give us a little bit more specifics about what's supporting these Iron Priests? For the White Scars, I'm assuming its a command squad with Khan, an apothecary, and possibly grav guns and/or more storm shields?

You mentioned endurance, but I don't see a list like that being able to pack enough psykers to reliably get endurance (unless Loth's hiding out somewhere) much less cast it against any army with a midding psychic presence.

2 Rune Priests on bikes? Apothecary from command squad (WS, DA). It the sheer weight of Attacks and wounds for LoS shenanigans though. For instance:

4 Iron Priests, 16 cyber wolves, 2 rune priests on bikes, Khan, command squad, (apothecary)

Or, Ravenwing command squad with apothecary and pfg.

Or Celestine and join them to a unit of TWC with storm shields and Thunder hammers.

Celestine and White Scars have hit and run. So tarpitting not a great idea. TBH they will chew through wraiths shockingly quickly.

RW has hit and run too. It basically boils down to if they feel they need an eternal warrior and grav or plasma talons plus MSU melta with a few more points to invest into the star. Well that and access to telepathy which DAs bring.

I haven't seen the sisters version but I can imagine it includes lots of melta.

Personally I would try to beat it by spreading objectives out and beating them on the mission. This would require eliminating support elements.
In this type of list iirc your gonna see upwards of 6 fast scouting bike/AB units plus maybe a smattering of other stuff if DA variety, slightly less individual elements if WS. You should be able to wipe those off the board and control the mission with obsec.

Flyers/FMCs as stated will be largely immune to this list but they don't really do anything to counter it themselves.

The list is really good at board control and can split off any number of different elements to deal with cowering obsec.

This is true. I guess I we should be asking what type of missions you play over there. If its turn based scoring that won't make as much of a difference. If your still stuck in 6th with EW missions then thats another matter.

Anyway the usual strategy is to combat deathstars with extreme MSU, unless your star is just better. Basically what I said above but put into strategy not just the tactics. You could also hit it with a concussive weapon to deny H&R although with your particular armies you don't have access to grav. Also if they are taking a cmd squad as the core there aren't going to be many storm shields around so they will get shot up pretty easily by things like farshiit bomb or draigo cents.

So how many points are these priests? I'm sure everyone wouldn't mind having a couple chapter master-esque characters floating around (presumably with 12" move and 2/3 wounds, correct?) but with 4 of them I think that you fall victim to "ignore the deathstar and kill the rest of the army" syndrome, forcing them to make their points back in area denial/actually killing things, which is more difficult than you think if the unit is upwards of 600 points or so.

The other thing that I think people are underestimating is this: while you can divorce the unit, each guy is on his own. So this is really not super viable early on when you should still have firepower to deal with a lone dude. Later on, it is helpful - I do the same thing with the D Lord from my Wraithstar - but then tarpitting for even a turn or two is really effective. 5 attacks, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds....not exactly going to be a guaranteed sweep, even with no invuln.

Exactly. The star is upwards of 1k, usually closer to 1300. Each priest hits like a train with 4 x s10 ap1 but hes 2w no invuln accompanied by 3-4 x t5 cyberwolves each. The only models with invulns are the four 1w cmd members and possibly the wolf HQs. I love the concept but its manageable if your on the same level.

1300 points is nuts. I could bring An'ggrath for those kind of points. Mathammer that!

And by "those kind of points", I mean I could bring An'ggrath AND Be'Lakor, giving An'ggrath invis each turn and STILL being less points. Goodness

In its defence, each priest in the star can detach with his 4 wolves and form a separate unit that puts out 5 WS5 S10ap1 and 16 WS4 S4 attacks on the charge, each costing 165 Points. Their selling point is that you can have a single character tank for them, or share FNP from the same source. If the unit they attach to has Hit&Run they can also use the rule at the end of the opponents turn to slingshot the whole unit into enemy lines, then split it up.

Don't get me wrong - it's good. I'm just saying it's hardly the end of the world and that there are ways around it. My personal favorite - Tervigon tarpit with babies for days. Even if it probably won't sustain for long since statistically, the tervigon poops out in 100% of its games on turn 1

Lychguard with shields and orikan would hold them up.

Fragile wrote:
Lychguard with shields and orikan would hold them up.

Unless it's built with Hit & Run, in which case it WANTS to be tied up by such a unit until the end of its opponents assault phase.

for what its worth ironpriests i think get a 6++ from their armor.

Sounds like Doomsday Arks would absolutely ruin it. Huge unit that takes up most of their army and is a good target for large blasts. Especially ones that ID and ignore FNP. If they split up they are going to lose their invuln tanks and can be shot to pieces.

Wait, what are the saves on this Wolfstar again?

Thx.

The last three tournaments I have attended and am talking about have been:

1 maelstrom tournament (won by ETC player using wolves built around white scar bikers)

1 eternal war tournament (won by ETC player using wolves built around TWC with Celestine brought in as an ally for Hit and Run - this blob was MASSIVE)

1 eternal war primary with modified maelstrom secondary tournament (won by ETC player using Dark Angels command squad with many attached Iron Priests and wolves)

In the top three at each even was TWC blob with marine allies for chap master, or Iron Priest blob joining WS command squad).

The main point is this: the top tournament list in the UK currently is an assault based army built around Wolves. Other than taking specific units, what are the approaches that really give you a chance of winning against this list. Should general list building be informed by this shift in the meta?

I don't see spamming str 10 as being something that any army can do reliably (with the dubious exception of necron pylon star) and tarpitting wont work because most of these builds have hit and run and are very good at killing anything with weight of dice.

Where are you getting this from? I kmow you are on about joul humes list. I helped him design his new one and it is certainly not winning all the uk tournaments. Perhaps local 3 gane tourneys yes but thats it. Not taking discredit from joel his a solid player but you make out that the uk is being overrun with wolfstar....well its not. Cally there wasnt a wolfstar near the tip tables. Table 1 last game was myself with Tau and james with necrons. I dont recall a large tournement where wolves won it so calm this hysterical ranting lol!

The unit is solid in combat but all you do is shoot the feth out of it. Either that or fly around it. Daemons eldar and tau all dk this well. Daemons are the biggest threat to them and daemons ha e a huge presence in the scene. 9 hornets can crush all those fancy 2 plus saves. Dont forget UK tourneys rule twc as str 9 not 10.

Honestly without FNP the wolf star is kinda meh. Just shoot it, limit its ability to multi assault, and play to objectives. Use directional shooting to get around its armor and go from there.