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Because now they just hand your opponent VPs.

No heywire grenades makes them atrocious at AT, when they were THE anti-tank unit. In CC, their S3 attacks bounce off the T3 (god forbid T4) of other units. Their high initiative just let's them suck before they die.

They are really good as shelf ornaments, but they never make it to my lists. Not even with Lelith and/or Succubus.

So my question is ... What do you use them for?

To make my Banshees feel good!

The space where my Mandrakes were on my shelf was starting to get a little dusty

Just to say to my opponent:

"You might have won this battle, but I'll take those hot chicks back home"

No seriously, I dont care that much if they are bad in this edition. I always field my squad, cause I like their look. And they are not that bad. They are situational, but with a nicely equipped hekatrix and maybe a succubus they can still have their moments.

They make a great base for harlequin conversions (if you hate the dancing space clown look like I personally do).

Was tempted to try a shadowseer with them but not sure its worth the trouble.

 MasterOfGaunts wrote:
Just to say to my opponent:

"You might have won this battle, but I'll take those hot chicks back home"

No seriously, I dont care that much if they are bad in this edition. I always field my squad, cause I like their look. And they are not that bad. They are situational, but with a nicely equipped hekatrix and maybe a succubus they can still have their moments.

What situation? My point is they look great and I have over thirty of them, but I just can think of a use that is covered by another units in the codex can't do better. At first I fielded them alone, in denial I guess, 5 to a venom. Then 10 in a raider. You can see where this is going. I had a 420 point unit with a Hekatrix, Succubus, and Lelith in a raider. Did this for two games. Got into close combat in both games but was so depleted from overwatch that they did hardly anything before they wiped, we'll Lelith and Succubus lasted a couple rounds. I gave them a shot, I truly did. I hope the the next supplement is DE Cults and they fix my beloved Wyches.

0s0ldier615 wrote:

 MasterOfGaunts wrote:
Just to say to my opponent:

"You might have won this battle, but I'll take those hot chicks back home"

No seriously, I dont care that much if they are bad in this edition. I always field my squad, cause I like their look. And they are not that bad. They are situational, but with a nicely equipped hekatrix and maybe a succubus they can still have their moments.

What situation? My point is they look great and I have over thirty of them, but I just can think of a use that is covered by another units in the codex can't do better. At first I fielded them alone, in denial I guess, 5 to a venom. Then 10 in a raider. You can see where this is going. I had a 420 point unit with a Hekatrix, Succubus, and Lelith in a raider. Did this for two games. Got into close combat in both games but was so depleted from overwatch that they did hardly anything before they wiped, we'll Lelith and Succubus lasted a couple rounds. I gave them a shot, I truly did. I hope the the next supplement is DE Cults and they fix my beloved Wyches.

In all seriousness they are like Hormagaunts, make for a cheap tarpit unit. Grotesques do CC better unfortunately.

They serve no A-list purpose. If you already have the models, they are a second tier Objective Secured unit and a second tier CC unit.

 Jimsolo wrote:
They serve no A-list purpose. If you already have the models, they are a second tier Objective Secured unit and a second tier CC unit.

I think calling them a second tier assault is way too generous.

sweetbacon wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
They serve no A-list purpose. If you already have the models, they are a second tier Objective Secured unit and a second tier CC unit.

I think calling them a second tier assault is way too generous.

Being as there are only 2 troops in the DE codex.










You're probably still right.

They're pretty obviously intended to Deep Strike in in their transports on turn 2+ so as to take advantage of PfP, not assaulting until turn 3 at the earliest.

Once they hit FnP 5+ and FC they will beat most troops in the game. I'm not sure about Genestealers, but pretty much everything else. Probably Genestealers, given their Inv save.

To keep the Kabalite Warriors occupied when not on a raid?

Wyches are not worse than kabalite warriors as soon as you consider jinks. And your paper-thin transports are better off jinking like crazy as soon as you see something's pointing their direction.

 koooaei wrote:
Wyches are not worse than kabalite warriors as soon as you consider jinks. And your paper-thin transports are better off jinking like crazy as soon as you see something's pointing their direction.

I'm not sure I follow. How does Jinking make Wyches equal to Warriors?

Yeah warriors can jink also, that's like saying warriors are better because you can put them with an archon with a WWP.

I do think that what Alcibiades said is the closest thing to an actual use for them. Good catch. Maybe they aren't an absolute waste, so long as they can survive to the fourth round to get that Furious Charge. FnP is tricky at T3 though, I tend not to rely on it too much, although it can help a lot of the time for sure. Better than nothing I guess.

How about this:

10 Wyches with 3 shard net and impalers
Haemonculus with WWP

220 points

Give them the Haemie so they do have to survive so long before they get FC and drop them into cover. Next turn charge into combat and rape faces?

0s0ldier615 wrote:
Yeah warriors can jink also, that's like saying warriors are better because you can put them with an archon with a WWP.

I do think that what Alcibiades said is the closest thing to an actual use for them. Good catch. Maybe they aren't an absolute waste, so long as they can survive to the fourth round to get that Furious Charge. FnP is tricky at T3 though, I tend not to rely on it too much, although it can help a lot of the time for sure. Better than nothing I guess.

How about this:

10 Wyches with 3 shard net and impalers
Haemonculus with WWP

220 points

Give them the Haemie so they do have to survive so long before they get FC and drop them into cover. Next turn charge into combat and rape faces?

Less time on the board for wyches is always > IMO. I wouldn't bother with the WWP though. Raiders/Venoms already DS just fine and you're not getting out of the coffin when it comes in anyway. So next turn you still have 6" move, 6" disembark and your fleet charge to make up for whatever scatter happens. It saves you more points for the next part of the strategy that would make Wyche drop work: moar wyches. One unit of wyches in a raider is going to die pretty quickly. 3-4 will probably have a few units survive, and they are decent once they make combat.

The problem with wyches is actually getting them to combat in the first place, once there they carry their weight just fine.

 Dash2021 wrote:

0s0ldier615 wrote:
Yeah warriors can jink also, that's like saying warriors are better because you can put them with an archon with a WWP.

I do think that what Alcibiades said is the closest thing to an actual use for them. Good catch. Maybe they aren't an absolute waste, so long as they can survive to the fourth round to get that Furious Charge. FnP is tricky at T3 though, I tend not to rely on it too much, although it can help a lot of the time for sure. Better than nothing I guess.

How about this:

10 Wyches with 3 shard net and impalers
Haemonculus with WWP

220 points

Give them the Haemie so they do have to survive so long before they get FC and drop them into cover. Next turn charge into combat and rape faces?

Less time on the board for wyches is always > IMO. I wouldn't bother with the WWP though. Raiders/Venoms already DS just fine and you're not getting out of the coffin when it comes in anyway. So next turn you still have 6" move, 6" disembark and your fleet charge to make up for whatever scatter happens. It saves you more points for the next part of the strategy that would make Wyche drop work: moar wyches. One unit of wyches in a raider is going to die pretty quickly. 3-4 will probably have a few units survive, and they are decent once they make combat.

The problem with wyches is actually getting them to combat in the first place, once there they carry their weight just fine.

Understandable, but that Haemie is the much needed boost in their PfP. Otherwise, hopefully, they come in on 2 and charge on 3, meaning they lose the use of the FC which can change the result of any CC.

I think both work well, but you have a good point. It is so easy with the DE to be drawn into the upgrades that you put blinders on to the other options. Thanks for the food for thought.

The main problem really seems to be how to get them into combat before they are mowed down. For some reason the new codex took away the main thing that was good about them making them something for picking off small units i guess? They can probably do some damage still in close combat and slow anything down coming in to support things you really want to lay down hurt on to get rid of.

Probably wouldn't want to put them with Lelith though with a Succubus I'd consider throwing Wyches in as a token squad since the Succubus can use a WWP although how much is a WWP needed for it's points value? I'm new to DE so I'm not too savvy on what it actually does and how it helps.

For Lelith if you really want to take her it seems better to stick her with Grotesques because they can tank for her and get her into combat and into challenges where she really shines. They also seem a much scarier CC unit for her to be with just as a distraction so your paper ships have a better chance of being ignored while they charge into battle since the last thing they want is Lelith and a bunch of Grotesques near anything especially later in the game. Lelith and Wyches just feels like the unit gets mowed down easily leaving Lelith vulnerable before she's managed to do anything.

0s0ldier615 wrote:

 Dash2021 wrote:

0s0ldier615 wrote:
Yeah warriors can jink also, that's like saying warriors are better because you can put them with an archon with a WWP.

I do think that what Alcibiades said is the closest thing to an actual use for them. Good catch. Maybe they aren't an absolute waste, so long as they can survive to the fourth round to get that Furious Charge. FnP is tricky at T3 though, I tend not to rely on it too much, although it can help a lot of the time for sure. Better than nothing I guess.

How about this:

10 Wyches with 3 shard net and impalers
Haemonculus with WWP

220 points

Give them the Haemie so they do have to survive so long before they get FC and drop them into cover. Next turn charge into combat and rape faces?

Less time on the board for wyches is always > IMO. I wouldn't bother with the WWP though. Raiders/Venoms already DS just fine and you're not getting out of the coffin when it comes in anyway. So next turn you still have 6" move, 6" disembark and your fleet charge to make up for whatever scatter happens. It saves you more points for the next part of the strategy that would make Wyche drop work: moar wyches. One unit of wyches in a raider is going to die pretty quickly. 3-4 will probably have a few units survive, and they are decent once they make combat.

The problem with wyches is actually getting them to combat in the first place, once there they carry their weight just fine.

Understandable, but that Haemie is the much needed boost in their PfP. Otherwise, hopefully, they come in on 2 and charge on 3, meaning they lose the use of the FC which can change the result of any CC.

I think both work well, but you have a good point. It is so easy with the DE to be drawn into the upgrades that you put blinders on to the other options. Thanks for the food for thought.

Didn't say don't take the haemi, just the WWP

Then we agree.

Compare Wyches to Ork Slugga Boyz vs. bolter Tac Marines. Equal points values of Boyz and Wyches relative to Marines. Assuming that Wyches and Boyz both get the charge and that Wyches have FnP 5+ and FC. Different kinds of combat drugs have to be compared.

===

14 Slugga Boyz vs. 6 Tacs

Sluggas shoot. 1/3 x ½ x 1/3 = 1/18 x 14 = 7/9, Round up to 1; 1 Tac dies.

Tacs get overwatch. 1/6 x ½ = 1/12 x 10 = 5/6. Round up to 1; 1 Ork dies.

Tacs go first. ½ x ½ x 5/6 = 5/24 x 5 = 25/24. Round down to 1; 1 Ork dies.

Orks attack. ½ x ½ x 1/3 = 1/12 x 48 = 4. 4 Tacs die.

Result: Tacs lose combat by 3. 1 Tac is left; 12 Orks are left.

===

14 Wyches vs. 9 Tacs

***

w/Hypex or Splintermind

Wyches shoot. 2/3 x ½ x 1/3 = 1/9 x 14 = 14/9. Round down to 1; 1 Tac dies.

Tacs get overwatch. 1/6 x 2/3 x 2/3 = 4/54 x 16 = 64/54. Round down to 1; 1 Wych dies.

Wyches go first. ½ x ½ x 1/3 = 1/12 x 42 = 42/12. Round up to 4; 4 Tacs die.

Tacs attack. ½ x 2/3 x ½ x 2/3 = 1/9 x 4 = 4/9. Round down to 0; 0 Wyches die.

Result: Tacs lose combat by 4. 4 Tacs are left; 13 Wyches are left.

***

W/Adrenalight

Wyches shoot. 2/3 x ½ x 1/3 = 1/9 x 14 = 14/9. Round down to 1; 1 Tac dies.

Tacs get overwatch. 1/6 x 2/3 x 2/3 = 4/54 x 16 = 64/54. Round down to 1; 1 Wych dies.

Wyches go first. ½ x ½ x 1/3 = 1/12 x 52 = 52/12. Round down to 4; 4 Tacs die.

Tacs attack. ½ x 2/3 x ½ x 2/3 = 1/9 x 4 = 4/9. Round down to 0; 0 Wyches die.

Result: Tacs lose combat by 4. 4 Tacs are left; 13 Wyches are left.

***

W/Grave Lotus

Wyches shoot. 2/3 x ½ x 1/3 = 1/9 x 14 = 14/9. Round down to 1; 1 Tac dies.

Tacs get overwatch. 1/6 x 2/3 x 2/3 = 4/54 x 16 = 64/54. Round down to 1; 1 Wych dies.

Wyches go first. ½ x 2/3 x 1/3 = 1/9 x 39 = 39/9. Round down to 4; 4 Tacs die.

Tacs attack. ½ x 2/3 x ½ x 2/3 = 1/9 x 4 = 4/9. Round down to 0; 0 Wyches die.

Result: Tacs lose combat by 4. 4 Tacs are left; 13 Wyches are left.

***

W/Painbringer

Wyches shoot. 2/3 x ½ x 1/3 = 1/9 x 14 = 14/9. Round down to 1; 1 Tac dies.

Tacs get overwatch. 1/6 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 1/18 x 16 = 18/16. Round up to 1; 1 Wych dies.

Wyches go first. ½ x 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/12 x 39 = 39/12. Round down to 3. 3 Tacs die.

Tacs attack. ½ x ½ x ½ x 2/3 = 1/12 x 5 = 5/12. Round down to 0; 0 Wyches die.

Result: Tacs lose combat by 3. 4 Tacs are left; 13 Wyches are left.

***

W/Serpentine

Wyches shoot. 2/3 x ½ x 1/3 = 1/9 x 14 = 14/9. Round down to 1; 1 Tac dies.

Tacs get overwatch. 1/6 x 2/3 x 2/3 = 4/54 x 16 = 64/54. Round down to 1; 1 Wych dies.

Wyches go first. 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/9 x 39 = 39/9. Round down to 4;. 4 Tacs die.

Tacs attack. ½ x 2/3 x ½ x 2/3 = 1/9 x 4 = 4/9. Round down to 0; 0 Wyches die.

Result: Tacs lose combat by 3. 4 Tacs are left; 13 Wyches are left.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

EDIT: I redid the calcs a little when I realized that I hadn't included FnP when calculating marine overwatch. I don't think there are significant errors, though.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if your math hold true to dice rolls, the Wyches with FnP and FC are actually useful and can somewhat reliably get into CC with a standard size marine tac unit? You know what, there is only one way to find out, dust them off and throw them back into the fight. Thanks Alcibiades, and everyone else too for your analysis of the topic.

Oh, sorry, i forgot you don't get reduced to snapshots if the transport jinks. However, you still get to pass ld to not be reduced to snapshots if the transport looses a HP or you get auto-snapshooting if it gets shaken or stunned.

Anywayz, i do think that wyches are much better than warriors as a backfield threat shooting pistols than charging instead of either shooting or charging for warriors. They can also tarpit to some extent thanks to 4++ and ability to actually do something in mellee. And their shooting is just only half bad.

They're difinitely overpriced for what they get 1-2 round but starting from round 3+ they're fine. Means you can use it in 2 ways - either hiding out of los/in reserves till the time is right or being a distraction carnifex early on to draw fire away from something else.

0s0ldier615 wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but if your math hold true to dice rolls, the Wyches with FnP and FC are actually useful and can somewhat reliably get into CC with a standard size marine tac unit? You know what, there is only one way to find out, dust them off and throw them back into the fight. Thanks Alcibiades, and everyone else too for your analysis of the topic.

On paper they're definitely viable.

I don't play or play against DE, so this is all theoretical , but looking at the codex I think that both Wyches and Hellions, more than anything else, are designed around PfP. They're really meant to be held in reserve and come in after the game has already started.

A pure Wych Cult army, I think, would start wih Beast Pack cannon fodder on the board (they don't depend on FnP) and Wyches and Hellions Deep Striking in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Urk. I rounded down when doing wych shooting instead of rounding up. They kill 1.55 Tacs with shooting, not 1.44, so add a dead Tac.

To be honest, i don't think that a pure wytch cult is gona be viable. You need to be on board turn one with the bulk of your forces to not get too far behind your opponent in a VP game.

However, one squad of Wyches will certainly have a place. They have some stuff going for them.

 koooaei wrote:
To be honest, i don't think that a pure wytch cult is gona be viable. You need to be on board turn one with the bulk of your forces to not get too far behind your opponent in a VP game.

However, one squad of Wyches will certainly have a place. They have some stuff going for them.

You could start with Reavers on the board as well. Very good objective grabbers!

Not that I am pushing the idea, just considering what the designers were probably thinking.

I'm a DE newb, and I broke out the Wyches for the first time in my FLGS' escalation league this weekend. At this level (500pts.), my list consisted of (1) a Succubus with a Blast Pistol, Archite Glave, Haywire Grenades, and Helm of Spite, (2) a Nightshield, Shock Prow Disintegrator Cannon Raider with 7 standard Wyches, 1 Hydra Gaunlet Wych, and a Hekatrix with a Blast Pistol, Agonizer, and Haywire Grenades, and (3) 6 Reavers with two Cluster Caltrops and no gun mods. (I know this isn't a legal detachment/FOC, our escalation is 1 HQ/1 unit at 250, add a unit at 500, add a unit at 750, etc.). Based on everything I have read, I really expected to be crippled by the Wyches. Granted, if what I have been reading is correct, and in the previous codex ALL of the Wyches could take haywire grenades, that would certainly make them OP against anything with an AV, but as it stands the Wyches are not without merit. Wyches on foot in the open are as good as dead, but honestly they should never be there. I didn't manage to Deep Strike them this time, but I definitely see value in doing so. I don't think Wyches are the distraction Carnifex. I think they are the evil lurking behind the distraction Carnifex. I think, unlike the Reavers, Kabalite Warriors, Trueborn, etc. which can and do function just fine without a "sergeant", it is absolutely imperative to take the Hekatrix and some toys on her. While the Wyches high initiative, low strength attacks will net some kills, it the Hekatrix' Agonizer and the Succubus' Two-Handed Archite Glave strikes that will take care of the main killing. With Blast Pistols and Haywire Grenades, you are looking at potentially 4 HP against vehicles per turn. 2 in the shooting, and 2 in the CC, and at AP2 Lance, it's still possible to pop the tops of vehicles before ever charging in. The biggest problem I had with the escalation was since it was limited to three units for all players either the Raider or the Reavers were under constant focused fire. DE, like Orks, are a numbers army. Since this DE codex is my first, my understanding of the "Wych Cult" units are Wyches, BloodBrides, Reavers, Hellions, Beastmasters, Razorwing Jetfighters, and Voidraven Bombers. If you are building a Wych Cult out of this, and you have targets that your opponent fears (Reavers, Beastmaster squads?) there is no reason your Raider Wyches can't come in and slicy dicey when he least expects it.

Just my $.02

Wyches were not OP'd with all haywire. They were about on par with warriors back then honestly. They were still pretty hard to deliver into combat and were really only good at anti tank.

Now all I can say is if your doing well with wyches your environment is much much friendlier than mine.

I just keep sending hate mail to GW and maybe one day they'll get tired of being f*ckups and realize they ran fantasy into the ground because of it. If nothing else its entertainment for me.

dominuschao wrote:
Wyches were not OP'd with all haywire. They were about on par with warriors back then honestly. They were still pretty hard to deliver into combat...

Wyches were ridiculously OP eaters of Superheavies and Land Raiders. Not only was that OP, it went heavily against their fluff of being lightly armed duelists. And they were not hard to deliver into combat at all, quite the opposite.

The problem I have in threads like this is that people just want to look at a unit in isolation. While that's a poor way to look at any unit, it's an especially bad way to look at Wyches. I think Wyches are good. I win with Wyches. I took 6th place out of 42 at a regional tournament recently with a Wych list, tabling Demons and Orks in the process. And it was fun.

Here's the thing: Wyches in a 3+ jinking raider are highly likely to survive early turns when you consider the context of your list. Given the rest of what you're bringing, is your opponent really going to be focusing on a Wych boat that's actually pretty dang hard to kill? I mean... if someone wants to shoot a lascannon at a raider that's fine with me because it's unlikely to stop the raider. That's a win for me. I'd rather have that lascannon target a Wych Raider than a Venon full of blasterborn or a Ravager.

Overwatch is an over-rated threat against Wyches in my experience. If they stay in cover and get a cover save plus FnP, they're not going to lose much to bolt guns or even a flamer.

The folks here saying Wyches don't work because they loaded up a Raider with them and a Succubus and Lelith and it didn't work out are playing Wyches wrong. Hell, they're playing the Dark Eldar codex wrong. With a few coven exceptions, we're a MSU army. Our offense and defense both thrive on multiple small units; go against that too heavily and your list ends up being extremely beatable. Going back to the lascannon thing, we want people to work their tails off to take down a Raider with 3+ jink just to get at 70 points of Wyches. That minimizes and contains their shooting phase which gives us an advantage. I want people to shoot at my Wyches so bad that I'll go out of my way to mention their 6+ armor save.

40k matches are often won when one player exerts control of the battle by creating mismatches - and Wyches are an effective tool in the mismatch battle. People call it "tarpitting" but that's short-sighted I think. When you see that your opponent has a Dreadknight, that's a severe mismatch in favor of Wyches. And no, I don't wish I spent those points on Kabalites in that situation, I want Wyches to pounce on that thing the moment it shunts because I know it will kill only about one Wych per round in CC. And my opponent will be shaking his head... I'm not just there to do no damage, my Reavers or other units will join in when the moment is right and kill it. I think a lot of people give up on Wyches after trying to use them to be mainstream CC units and they're just not. They're tools in our toolbox - specialists.

List context aside, here are the ways I've found most effective in running Wyches:

- 6x Wyches, Hekatrix w/haywire, hydra wych, Raider w/NS. Run these in pairs to counter-assault or reinforce other assault units.

- 8-10 Wyches, 3x hydra, Hekatrix w/haywire, consider agonizer, Raider w/NS. Run these in pairs in a list with higher-priority targets. You want to be rushing packs of Khymera, a pair of Grotesque units, etc. And when you do that, you'll see this Wych configuration be rather effective. Also if you want to run Bloodbrides, do it like this.

- 7-9 Wyches, Hydra, Hekatrix, [HQ unit], Raider w/NS deep-striking. Don't bother with WWP, just deep strike in turn 2 and go for a turn 3 assault on a choice unit. Use in a list where you're going to be assaulting turn 2. Stay in the Raider when DS. Turn 3 get out and mulch something in their back line with a scissor-Haemi giving the unit furious charge or an Archite Glaive succubus. Again, I can't stress enough that you should only do this when you're playing an assault list where your Reavers, Coven units, Harlequins, etc are going to be all up in your opponents' pants turn 2.

One last thing. A Raider's dark lance + Hekatrix throwing haywire + Hekatrix assaulting with haywire packs a surprising anti-vehicle punch from a place your opponent will be slow to see coming. Take advantage of it big time.

mercury14 wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
Wyches were not OP'd with all haywire. They were about on par with warriors back then honestly. They were still pretty hard to deliver into combat...

Wyches were ridiculously OP eaters of Superheavies and Land Raiders. Not only was that OP, it went heavily against their fluff of being lightly armed duelists. And they were not hard to deliver into combat at all, quite the opposite.

The problem I have in threads like this is that people just want to look at a unit in isolation. While that's a poor way to look at any unit, it's an especially bad way to look at Wyches. I think Wyches are good. I win with Wyches. I took 6th place out of 42 at a regional tournament recently with a Wych list, tabling Demons and Orks in the process. And it was fun.

Here's the thing: Wyches in a 3+ jinking raider are highly likely to survive early turns when you consider the context of your list. Given the rest of what you're bringing, is your opponent really going to be focusing on a Wych boat that's actually pretty dang hard to kill? I mean... if someone wants to shoot a lascannon at a raider that's fine with me because it's unlikely to stop the raider. That's a win for me. I'd rather have that lascannon target a Wych Raider than a Venon full of blasterborn or a Ravager.

Overwatch is an over-rated threat against Wyches in my experience. If they stay in cover and get a cover save plus FnP, they're not going to lose much to bolt guns or even a flamer.

The folks here saying Wyches don't work because they loaded up a Raider with them and a Succubus and Lelith and it didn't work out are playing Wyches wrong. Hell, they're playing the Dark Eldar codex wrong. With a few coven exceptions, we're a MSU army. Our offense and defense both thrive on multiple small units; go against that too heavily and your list ends up being extremely beatable. Going back to the lascannon thing, we want people to work their tails off to take down a Raider with 3+ jink just to get at 70 points of Wyches. That minimizes and contains their shooting phase which gives us an advantage. I want people to shoot at my Wyches so bad that I'll go out of my way to mention their 6+ armor save.

40k matches are often won when one player exerts control of the battle by creating mismatches - and Wyches are an effective tool in the mismatch battle. People call it "tarpitting" but that's short-sighted I think. When you see that your opponent has a Dreadknight, that's a severe mismatch in favor of Wyches. And no, I don't wish I spent those points on Kabalites in that situation, I want Wyches to pounce on that thing the moment it shunts because I know it will kill only about one Wych per round in CC. And my opponent will be shaking his head... I'm not just there to do no damage, my Reavers or other units will join in when the moment is right and kill it. I think a lot of people give up on Wyches after trying to use them to be mainstream CC units and they're just not. They're tools in our toolbox - specialists.

List context aside, here are the ways I've found most effective in running Wyches:

- 6x Wyches, Hekatrix w/haywire, hydra wych, Raider w/NS. Run these in pairs to counter-assault or reinforce other assault units.

- 8-10 Wyches, 3x hydra, Hekatrix w/haywire, consider agonizer, Raider w/NS. Run these in pairs in a list with higher-priority targets. You want to be rushing packs of Khymera, a pair of Grotesque units, etc. And when you do that, you'll see this Wych configuration be rather effective. Also if you want to run Bloodbrides, do it like this.

- 7-9 Wyches, Hydra, Hekatrix, [HQ unit], Raider w/NS deep-striking. Don't bother with WWP, just deep strike in turn 2 and go for a turn 3 assault on a choice unit. Use in a list where you're going to be assaulting turn 2. Stay in the Raider when DS. Turn 3 get out and mulch something in their back line with a scissor-Haemi giving the unit furious charge or an Archite Glaive succubus. Again, I can't stress enough that you should only do this when you're playing an assault list where your Reavers, Coven units, Harlequins, etc are going to be all up in your opponents' pants turn 2.

One last thing. A Raider's dark lance + Hekatrix throwing haywire + Hekatrix assaulting with haywire packs a surprising anti-vehicle punch from a place your opponent will be slow to see coming. Take advantage of it big time.

This is so true. I find it hard to believe people have trouble getting Wyches in CC. Its very easy to do.... I play against eldar, IG, and SM and I still find a way to get close enough