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Hello dakka! I'm an old Apoc gamer coming to you guys with a question. I know the Daemon Lords (An'ggrath, Zarakynel, etc) are specced for Apoc, and have the statlines to avoid getting owned by Strength D weapons and or the huge amount of firepower they'll face in a big game. However, the games my group plays in are generally around 2,000-3,000 points per person, and many of the players just bring expanded versions of their armies without the huge firepower increases that Apoc sees.

One player runs Zarakynel, which dominates games (it literally ate an entire player's 2,000 point force with average rolling). I proposed dropping the invul to a 4++, but the Demon player protested, of course. Do you have any suggestions for our meta? (it's mostly CSM with Zarakynel versus loyalist Marines of all flavors).

Actually str d will own them. All you need is a single 6 and both Anggrath and The big Z are gone. Grab a macro cannon and go to town. Or a lynx. Or whatever. If you can't fight it, then don't. Kill the rest of the army. Anggrath is almost 900 points. In 5 turns can he make back 900 points? Not likely, so you are inherently playing with an advantage as long as you don't feed him a unit each turn. FYI 5 turns would be a really long apoc game, but you are playing at pretty low points levels for apoc.

General rule of thumb with apoc, you can do one of three things:

1) don't bring a knife to a gun fight (aka bring things that can actually compete with/kill your opponents)
2) if you insist on using knives, throw them at the units that have knives (aka kill what you can and ignore the deathstar model)
3) if neither of these are possible, tailor the engagement. Make it fluffy and forge a narrative, but make it more difficult for the player with the unkillable unit/model.

Apoc is meant to be fun for everyone, but it doesn't have to be super balanced on paper. Just try to make the engagements work, either with even unit power or even engagement terms. And above all else, remember that it's a game and about having a good time

The daemon lords have special rules that they cannot take up more then 25% of the army, meaning that none of them can be taken in a 2000pt, only the slaanesh one can be brought in a 3000pt game. The tzeentch one wont show up in less than a 4K point game.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
The daemon lords have special rules that they cannot take up more then 25% of the army, meaning that none of them can be taken in a 2000pt, only the slaanesh one can be brought in a 3000pt game. The tzeentch one wont show up in less than a 4K point game.

He said he was playing games of apoc so that limit doesn't apply

I wouldn't nerf units in APOC unless the owning player suggested it. Apoc is suppose to be grand crazy unbalanced. If the other players aren't able to figure out effective ways to make an apoc army it's not the demon guys fault.