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Hey folks.

I have a game coming against BA at 3K points. While I'm aware that a lot of BA toys are horrendously bad this edition, I am aware that the guy I'm playing is liable to pull some shady moves regarding wombo combos and the like. I'm pretty sure he can only bring BA, a knight and a Stormlord - what I need to know is if there's anything he could bring that might make my day less fun.

Oh, and we agreed to no fliers. So, those aside, what should I be wary of? I know the guy was running something with Corbulo, Mephiston and an SS captain back in 6th for a 2+, 3++, 2+++ combo.

Oh yeah, I have access to IG, Tau, ABG and limited numbers of Deathwing Terminators to use. In case anything in those is a hard counter to some of the stuff he could bring.

Cheers in advance Dakka.

look out for max target overload: 5+ drop pods with min marine units and 3+ complimentary specials; that followed by suped up death company and/or other elite jumpers with Dante deep in the fray.

I think BA are highly underestimated, especially in the hands of competent generals.

Will he be bringing battle bro. allies?

Not too many combos in the BA codex. He'll have to bring in allies to bring a truly scary list. The BA are NOT a good drop list, so I really wouldn't worry about that too much.

-Sanguinary Guard with 8-10 models, 2 fists, a banner, a priest and maybe Dante is a very difficult unit to deal with and hits hard. It's not 'OMGUBERCHEESEBROKEN' but it is dangerous.

-Look out for lots of MSU jp death company units, because often, just a couple of DC getting in a charge can seriously mess with a non assault unit,

-Not used my Knight with the new BA dex yet but it looks like it will synergise well.

-If he takes 3 tac squads with ravens he can run a detachment which allows charges from the DS. This may work very well for a 3K list.

-Some people have mentioned the Mephy/corbs/assault termi combo... but i'm not sure it's cost effective.

Those are the 'combos' that I think stand out.

At 3k pts he can pull off a deepstrike+charge list. This formation with 3 ravens that allow others to deepstrike without scatter and emidiately charge. Can be brutal.

 Deuce11 wrote:

I think BA are highly underestimated, especially in the hands of competent generals.

Spot on, they aren't a hard army to play but I've had a lot of games with and against them (mainly with my ig or orks) and and had a mixed bag, some players were hopeless and didn't play to Ba strengths where as others were brutal, I sit in the middle (I like fluffy lists for fun games)

Also to the person who said ba aren't a good drop army clearly hasn't played many good players or has a resilient army (sm). 1 tac squad, flamer, heavy flamer Sgt. With two hand flamers on a pod vs orks, ig, eldar... If you rely on cover these squads are a nightmare.

I don't think ba has any cheese with allies but they do have strong units. Dc with jump packs and astarath on the charge is insane, 10 standard guys put out 50 attacks at I5 rerolling hits and wounds.
Sang guard and dante with a priest is strong
Mephiston with 5 ss th terminators and a priest
Even multiple podded dc dreads I've seen cause havoc while the rest of the force moves in for assault.
Assault troops with lots of meltas podded
Grav bikes
Fast vindicators can be a nuisance

It has good options all round

Ok, so there's not much actual cheese in the BA book as far as I can tell. That's good.

Can you guys tell me about the Meph/Corb/SS combo? Does it still drop a 2+ fnp? How do I deal with that?

As for allies, I know he's probably brining a knight and a Stormlord (the superheavy, not Imotek). He shouldn't be able to bounce anything with those too hard, right?

Edit: Also, I'm fairly sure I'll be going tank heavy. At least 6 Russes of various flavours, if not more. I know BA can bring melta and get it close, just wondering how much of this I can/ should expect. Obviously, I plan to bubble wrap.

They aren't a good drop list, because BA want to be assaulting, and you can't assault from deep strike. SW do it soooo much better.

Yeah cause SW can get a 5 man squad with triple special weapons right?!?

BA do pods very well - massed pods especially. They don't need to charge an infact if built with pods in mind - don't want to either

 Massaen wrote:
Yeah cause SW can get a 5 man squad with triple special weapons right?!?

BA do pods very well - massed pods especially. They don't need to charge an infact if built with pods in mind - don't want to either

Three Special Weapons? Since when have Hand Flamers been that good? I don't think I've never seen a Hand flamer killing anyone.
And after you drop the three Templates and maybe kill something, you will be either shot to pieces or charged and then your epic unit will sit there for the rest of the game.

And why don't you want to charge? Without the FC and Red Thirst, your Marines are worse than literally everyone else's. The HF isn't so good that you take Blood Angels just to have access to it, is it?

As for the Mephiston/Assault Termies/Corbulo thing.
I really don't see why would anyone bring Corbulo there. He no longer has 2+ FnP, his only trait is giving +1 WS and I to his squad.
Mephiston is anyway going for quickening, he doesn't need the +1 I and the Terminators will hit with I1 anyway. His only benefits can be achieved by a regular Priest who is twice as cheap and can take relics.

I would approach games with a more positive 'tude. If you dislike him, why play? Losing badly doesnt mean he brought cheese. But blood angels other then triple ravens formation are pretty manageable. 6 storm ravens is possible at 3k. Suggest alot of anto air and interceptor.

The OP said they agreed to no air units so he doesn't have to worry about the triple ravens formation.

 Massaen wrote:
Yeah cause SW can get a 5 man squad with triple special weapons right?!?

BA do pods very well - massed pods especially. They don't need to charge an infact if built with pods in mind - don't want to either

I don't think BA can do enough damage with a drop list to be a viable TAC list.

 soomemafia wrote:


Three Special Weapons? Since when have Hand Flamers been that good? I don't think I've never seen a Hand flamer killing anyone.
And after you drop the three Templates and maybe kill something, you will be either shot to pieces or charged and then your epic unit will sit there for the rest of the game.

And why don't you want to charge? Without the FC and Red Thirst, your Marines are worse than literally everyone else's. The HF isn't so good that you take Blood Angels just to have access to it, is it?

podded flame squads put down 4 templates. Heavy flamer is killing guardians, guard, most tau and sm scouts out right (dont roll 1s), flamer puts down more wounds and the 2 hand flamers will still out wound a bolt gun on a sgt vs almost any horde or low AS army, wounding on 4s and generally you should hit 3-5 models min forcing crappy saves which several will likely fail. ive only used it once for a laugh dropping two of these squads next to a guard blob turn 1, he lost almost half of them and his agis def line then gave me a nice 4+ cover save for the hail of plasma that came my way after. 2 rounds in the blob was a good as dead and my dc were then getting in range to charge.

Space wolves have CA so being charged is great but to bring 2 melta in a pod for some anti tank alpha that costs 195 points and requires 10 guys, you may get a chance to use a second time but only if you commit to multiple pods.

BA - 105 points for a 5man 2 melta squad (10points more get a combi), you may not survive but you can through almost twice as many meltas for the same price.

I just wouldn't both with units you want to assault with in pods when BA have JP DC and sang guard, whats the point you get there soon enough anyway. pods for me are just anti tank or speed bumps. i happily sacrifice a 105 point unit to screw the game plan of my rival, its all chess and basic BA marines are speed bumps at best.

Space wolves also have extra CC weapon. And TWC to back them up. It's not even close.

 Jancoran wrote:
I would approach games with a more positive 'tude. If you dislike him, why play? Losing badly doesnt mean he brought cheese. But blood angels other then triple ravens formation are pretty manageable. 6 storm ravens is possible at 3k. Suggest alot of anto air and interceptor.

Ah, I see where you're coming from. It's not that I dislike the guy or even think he's WAAC - I just don't want to be caught flat footed by a nasty combo is all. Honestly, I don't mind so much win or lose, so long as I can get a decent fight.

Cheers though

dark_red wrote:

 soomemafia wrote:


Three Special Weapons? Since when have Hand Flamers been that good? I don't think I've never seen a Hand flamer killing anyone.
And after you drop the three Templates and maybe kill something, you will be either shot to pieces or charged and then your epic unit will sit there for the rest of the game.

And why don't you want to charge? Without the FC and Red Thirst, your Marines are worse than literally everyone else's. The HF isn't so good that you take Blood Angels just to have access to it, is it?

podded flame squads put down 4 templates. Heavy flamer is killing guardians, guard, most tau and sm scouts out right (dont roll 1s), flamer puts down more wounds and the 2 hand flamers will still out wound a bolt gun on a sgt vs almost any horde or low AS army, wounding on 4s and generally you should hit 3-5 models min forcing crappy saves which several will likely fail. ive only used it once for a laugh dropping two of these squads next to a guard blob turn 1, he lost almost half of them and his agis def line then gave me a nice 4+ cover save for the hail of plasma that came my way after. 2 rounds in the blob was a good as dead and my dc were then getting in range to charge.

Space wolves have CA so being charged is great but to bring 2 melta in a pod for some anti tank alpha that costs 195 points and requires 10 guys, you may get a chance to use a second time but only if you commit to multiple pods.

BA - 105 points for a 5man 2 melta squad (10points more get a combi), you may not survive but you can through almost twice as many meltas for the same price.

I just wouldn't both with units you want to assault with in pods when BA have JP DC and sang guard, whats the point you get there soon enough anyway. pods for me are just anti tank or speed bumps. i happily sacrifice a 105 point unit to screw the game plan of my rival, its all chess and basic BA marines are speed bumps at best.

To actually do something with those two Melta guns would require a succesful scatter roll, at least one succesful hit, a pen, (a failed jink in case of a Skimmer) and a good roll on the damage table.
And the opponent can't bubblewrap or any of that won't matter. A lot of ifs.

And any Space Marine list can do the same for the same price. And have access to Centurions. And Bikes as Troops. And TFCs. And Chapter Masters. And chapter tactics that actually help a Drop Pod list.
Blood Angel's Chapter Tactics are simply useless unless you charge.

Look, the drop pod ba player at my club is my bane as a dark eldar player. His flamers roasts my warriors etc. alive inside their vehicles.

Don't let him. You can see the pods in his list when you start the game.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
Look, the drop pod ba player at my club is my bane as a dark eldar player. His flamers roasts my warriors etc. alive inside their vehicles.

Pod Marines work. Nothing wins every game but if YOU are any good, you can take the same 75%+ of the games you usually do. If you're not good, few if any armies will get you better than 50% wins. So Generals matter and Pods work.

 Jancoran wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
Look, the drop pod ba player at my club is my bane as a dark eldar player. His flamers roasts my warriors etc. alive inside their vehicles.

Pod Marines work. Nothing wins every game but if YOU are any good, you can take the same 75%+ of the games you usually do. If you're not good, few if any armies will get you better than 50% wins. So Generals matter and Pods work.

SW pods are MUCH better than BA pods, though.

...and if you feel like painting six more, then cool. Or if you just don't care as long as there IS paint I guess! I'm more in the second camp. hehehe.

Blood Angels are very good if they are being played by someone who uses tactics rather than just being an idiot like running towards a plasma squad and not utilising cover.

Especially drop pods and their heavy flamers; oh how those squads are awesome.

I don't get this whole heavy flamers are awsome theme going around. Yeh it's a lot better than other heavy weapons choices on a tac squad, but lets consider the points.
-5 man Tac squad with heavy flamer and combi-flamer in pod = 130pts. Puts down a st5 ap4 and a st4 ap5 templates as well as 6 bolter shots on the drop, then risks spending the game out of range against any mobile opponent.
-3 rapier quad bolters = 120pts. Puts out 18 st5 ap4 tl shots (averaging 16 hits). Getting far more hits. Also has a greater range. Has 12 t7 compared to 5 t4 wounds.

Yeh heavyflamers are a good upgrade in comparison to the choice they had before... on a squad that is sub-par. It doesn't make tactical squads go from poor to awesome by upgrading a flamer to have +1st and ap.

SGTPozy wrote:
Blood Angels are very good if they are being played by someone who uses tactics rather than just being an idiot like running towards a plasma squad and not utilising cover.

Especially drop pods and their heavy flamers; oh how those squads are awesome.

There are no tactics vs dozens of scatter laser shots. Cover doesn't help. If we look at the numerical efficacy of their units, BA are still a bottom 25% codex. They are arguably inferior to every list except DA.

Also, the BA opponent can use "tactics" as well, and then the match is back to being decided by list building. Because "tactics" is actually a lazy argument.

BA have a few good builds, but you're better off either allying in SW or SM... And even then youre batter taking SW or SM. BA just can't compare to these two.

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Blood Angels are very good if they are being played by someone who uses tactics rather than just being an idiot like running towards a plasma squad and not utilising cover.

Especially drop pods and their heavy flamers; oh how those squads are awesome.

There are no tactics vs dozens of scatter laser shots. Cover doesn't help. If we look at the numerical efficacy of their units, BA are still a bottom 25% codex. They are arguably inferior to every list except DA.

Also, the BA opponent can use "tactics" as well, and then the match is back to being decided by list building. Because "tactics" is actually a lazy argument.

At least you have access to drop pods, chaos has to pay over the top and take forge world to have access to them. You're probably using them wrong anyway, you need to split your opponents fire instead of moaning that they shot a unit that is a threat to them. Same goes for if you're shooting at a dk or somthing else that is a massive threat you focus on it as its going to wreak face if you don't kill it.

If you're worried about scatterlazers (only eldar have these BTW) then don't go near them, have a unit that can hurt them such as bikes that'll draw fire away from your dropped.

BA are hardly in the lower 25% that belongs to DA, CSM and tyranids....

I've been playing BA since before drop pods were even released. I've played dozens of games against drop pod SW, but I'm sure I have no idea how to use drop pods, nor any clue how to counter them.

 total0 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Blood Angels are very good if they are being played by someone who uses tactics rather than just being an idiot like running towards a plasma squad and not utilising cover.

Especially drop pods and their heavy flamers; oh how those squads are awesome.

There are no tactics vs dozens of scatter laser shots. Cover doesn't help. If we look at the numerical efficacy of their units, BA are still a bottom 25% codex. They are arguably inferior to every list except DA.

Also, the BA opponent can use "tactics" as well, and then the match is back to being decided by list building. Because "tactics" is actually a lazy argument.

At least you have access to drop pods, chaos has to pay over the top and take forge world to have access to them. You're probably using them wrong anyway, you need to split your opponents fire instead of moaning that they shot a unit that is a threat to them. Same goes for if you're shooting at a dk or somthing else that is a massive threat you focus on it as its going to wreak face if you don't kill it.

If you're worried about scatterlazers (only eldar have these BTW) then don't go near them, have a unit that can hurt them such as bikes that'll draw fire away from your dropped.

BA are hardly in the lower 25% that belongs to DA, CSM and tyranids....

If you think the dreadclaw is an overpriced drop pod you are using it incorrectly. It is only a drop pod in name. What it actually is, is an av12 allround fast skimmer with the assault transport special rules (and all the fast skimmer special rules, namely 4+ jink and 18" turbo boost). Also having deepstrike and arriving T1. It is without a shadow of a doubt incredibly worth its points. I've used it twice now and both times it has dramatically affected the game. If we could take the dreadclaw as a FA option in a BA army I would take 3 EVERY game, it is that good!
If we include the units in IA:13; Sicaran, Typhon, fireraptor, plague hulk, rapier weapons batteries, bloodslaughterers and dreadclaws, we as CSM are definitely no longer in the bottom tier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh - forgot to include hellblades in that list.

Yep, Flamer droppods are pretty scary for backfield units and hordes. Even if you spread out - get ready to loose everything in flamer range.

And melta-asm are effective against mech while being cheap and disposable and capable of holding their own against equally costed squads due to bp+ccw and atsknf. And you'd better not ignore them as you'll eath melta and a bunch of s5 attacks next turn. So, they're a win-win.

DC are choppy as hell if they get the charge. They're more than point-effective but it's possible to deal with them. Ideally, you got to bauble-wrap so that they won't be able to charge the initially desired target. However, bauble-wrapping gets difficult as BA has flamers here and there, so if synergised correctly, this combination is brutal. To win, you got to break this synergy and force him to act separately with what he has.