Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This isn't a troll thread, but I'm curious, after seeing the LVO stats, and looking up a number of other tournies across the country, why aren't people using CSMs in tournaments? I'm working hard to get my Night Lords army complete for the Broadside Bash in April, but I'm curious if there's something I don't know haha.

Mostly because other MEQ armies can do what CSM's do better. The CSM armies you see placing well almost invariably have another detachment of allied Daemons doing the heavy lifting, and often the CSM armies will have very few actual CSM's (lots of cultists, things like that).

The army as a whole doesn't function well, and lacks clear focus as to what it wants to actually be.

The only reason it used to do well was Heldrakes, now that they've been nerfed significantly, you don't see CSM armies doing as well.

As someone who played CSM at the LVO, it really comes down to the fact that they don't have the cheap, powerful models that some armies have, and they don't have the mobility to grab all the maelstrom objectives that others have. I ended up going 4-2 with my single CAD CSM army, and one of the top 8 players was primary CSM (I believe his CSM CAD was a cheap sorcerer, 2 units of cultists, and a greater brass scorpion of khorne), so obviously the codex doesn't lack teeth at all, but it's definitely an uphill fight against armies like Tyranids, Imperial Knights, and Space Marines.

Round 2 I fought a player whose entire list was 3 Flyrants, 3 Mucaloids, and an Adamantine Lance in kill points- there really isn't anything CSM can do in that situation.

As far as competitive edge, the additions in IA13 helped CSM a lot, but they're still lacking strong answers to flyers and superheavies, who are a very common matchup at big tournaments.

Edit: My list was-

Ahriman
ML3 Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs & Psychic Familiar
Cypher
9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs
9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs
9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs
Helbrute with Multimelta
Chaos Sicaran with Lascannons, Ceramite Armour, Dozer Blade
Chaos Fire Raptor with Autocannon turrets

The entire point of a tournament game is to win as quickly, easily, and decisively as is possible. CSM aren't the easiest army to with with decisively before the time limit expires. Ergo, not a whole lot of CSM at tournaments.

Now, of course, if you change those parameters, CSM look different, but in this particular setup, that's why.

I run a CSM primary, but it mostly exists to provide 3 Blastmasters for me. 5 Spawn, a Biker Boss and a Maulerfiend are the only CSM things that get thrown upfield with a crapton of Seekers and Daemonettes.

The only pure CSM build I would contemplate running these days would be a Typhus zombie party. But I don't like Nurgle, so...

Short answer is because CSM is a bad book.

Longer answer is that with the rise of fliers/FMC's, and especially with the current popularity of flyrants, CSM has exactly 2 skyfire units in the codex - Heldrakes, but since you're taking the baleflamer, you're relying on vector strikes and flak havoks, who are 38 ppm for a single autocannon shot as well as taking up a valuable heavy support slot and being on a fragile platform.

True, you could try and get by with the quadgun from an aegis or bastion, but then, it's still not enough.

Then you consider how fragile marines are in the current meta and we have no way to get them into effective range before they're shot to hell and back.

Our force org swap troops choices are "OK" at best, and criminally bad at worst while the elites section is a wasteland with nothing but termicide being a viable choice (and even then it's a bit iffy).

The fact that our special rule hurts us more than it helps is not exactly a boon (pun intended) either, while much of the codex being assault focused in a shooting edition is yet another strike against us.

When other codices are getting T6 troops with Str 10 weapons or instant death flamers and a main battle tank for a dedicated transport, JSJ troops with 2x autocannons each or making entire armies from 13/12/12 superheavies, we get T3/4 guys with pop guns who run away at the slightest threat.

When you have to combat things like multiple riptides/wraithknights/dreadknights or wave serpents/imperial knights/nurgle soul grinders on a regular basis, any list that can take care of them will find a handful of T4 and a smattering of AV12 no issue at all.

 Drasius wrote:
Short answer is because CSM is a bad book.

Longer answer is that with the rise of fliers/FMC's, and especially with the current popularity of flyrants, CSM has exactly 2 skyfire units in the codex - Heldrakes, but since you're taking the baleflamer, you're relying on vector strikes and flak havoks, who are 38 ppm for a single autocannon shot as well as taking up a valuable heavy support slot and being on a fragile platform.

True, you could try and get by with the quadgun from an aegis or bastion, but then, it's still not enough.

Then you consider how fragile marines are in the current meta and we have no way to get them into effective range before they're shot to hell and back.

Our force org swap troops choices are "OK" at best, and criminally bad at worst while the elites section is a wasteland with nothing but termicide being a viable choice (and even then it's a bit iffy).

The fact that our special rule hurts us more than it helps is not exactly a boon (pun intended) either, while much of the codex being assault focused in a shooting edition is yet another strike against us.

When other codices are getting T6 troops with Str 10 weapons or instant death flamers and a main battle tank for a dedicated transport, JSJ troops with 2x autocannons each or making entire armies from 13/12/12 superheavies, we get T3/4 guys with pop guns who run away at the slightest threat.

When you have to combat things like multiple riptides/wraithknights/dreadknights or wave serpents/imperial knights/nurgle soul grinders on a regular basis, any list that can take care of them will find a handful of T4 and a smattering of AV12 no issue at all.

A lot of good points in this post. There is a lot left to be desired in the CSM book. It also sucks that my girlfriend gets frustrated and doesn't wanna play me anymore simple because she can't deal with even my fun lists (I play Necrons and Tyranids). They need some serious help.

Maybe I just haven't played against enough flyers. My orks have done pretty good overall, and I've always been heavily underwhelmed by the Ork Bommers and Dakka Jets.

I'm looking at running a fairly fast list: Drop Pod Squad, Rhino Squad, Warp Talons, 1 squad of cultist, a small squad of termies, 6 bikes and a Maulerfiend, so maybe I won't run into too many of these issues.

Or I'm gonna get my clock cleaned next month... haha. I appreciate the input, please keep it coming!

There's really not that much Synergy in the codex at all which is problematic, the "elites" are priced to expensive and can be taken care of.


The one good vehicle ended up getting nerfed.

Just over all terrible.

Hollismason wrote:
There's really not that much Synergy in the codex at all which is problematic,

Oh man, this.

Even with the older 4E codex (and all justified associated hate), though most things were more expensive, I found it had a lot more synergy, though the core rules have also gutted some of that. I could drive my four rhino's up turn 1, turn 2 start rolling for reserves and drop my Oblits and Termi's in on the Icons for no DS-scatter near the Rhino's, have them pop transports or deal with other threats while the gusy in the Rhinos disembarked and dakka'd stuff or assaulted it.

It wasn't the most superwtfpwn army, but it functioned, had a distinctive operation, and a clear follow-up methodology after the initial alpha strike. The current book is far harder to do that with even with more special rules and lower prices.

 somerandomidiot wrote:
As someone who played CSM at the LVO, it really comes down to the fact that they don't have the cheap, powerful models that some armies have, and they don't have the mobility to grab all the maelstrom objectives that others have. I ended up going 4-2 with my single CAD CSM army, and one of the top 8 players was primary CSM (I believe his CSM CAD was a cheap sorcerer, 2 units of cultists, and a greater brass scorpion of khorne), so obviously the codex doesn't lack teeth at all, but it's definitely an uphill fight against armies like Tyranids, Imperial Knights, and Space Marines.

Round 2 I fought a player whose entire list was 3 Flyrants, 3 Mucaloids, and an Adamantine Lance in kill points- there really isn't anything CSM can do in that situation.

As far as competitive edge, the additions in IA13 helped CSM a lot, but they're still lacking strong answers to flyers and superheavies, who are a very common matchup at big tournaments.

Edit: My list was-

Ahriman
ML3 Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs & Psychic Familiar
Cypher
9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs
9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs
9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs
Helbrute with Multimelta
Chaos Sicaran with Lascannons, Ceramite Armour, Dozer Blade
Chaos Fire Raptor with Autocannon turrets

I'd really like to see your batreps! There's so much hate towards CSM and 1000 sons in particular and you've gone 4-2! Imo, it's a much better resuly than winning a tournament with something like pentyrants.
Also, how do you think, would an infiltration list with huron + cypher and a blob of 20 marines + support be viable in a GT? Is there much you want to catch in mellee with csm?

Like BA, they are bad.

Perhaps they lack synergy and focus because they are in chaos

Otherwise, like has been said before other MEQ can do what Chaos does but better.

I can with all certainty tell you that CSM are made to be the best CC MEQ(ish...). In 7th edition that isn't a compliment.

Most of the above things but also the bizarre lack of important functions that many other factions have in quantity.

- Extremely limited access to Divination tree
- No deep strike mitigation
- No native infiltration outside of a single SC or a warlord trait
- Until recently, no true battle brother alliance option

Question: Why do people follow Chaos if they just die horribly CSM: mostly horrible(with some exceptions), renegades and heretics basically entirely horrible (with one very trolly exceptions, siege of vraks im looking at you nothing EVER dies mode)

Chaos has cookies?

 somerandomidiot wrote:
As someone who played CSM at the LVO, it really comes down to the fact that they don't have the cheap, powerful models that some armies have, and they don't have the mobility to grab all the maelstrom objectives that others have. I ended up going 4-2 with my single CAD CSM army, and one of the top 8 players was primary CSM (I believe his CSM CAD was a cheap sorcerer, 2 units of cultists, and a greater brass scorpion of khorne), so obviously the codex doesn't lack teeth at all, but it's definitely an uphill fight against armies like Tyranids, Imperial Knights, and Space Marines.

Round 2 I fought a player whose entire list was 3 Flyrants, 3 Mucaloids, and an Adamantine Lance in kill points- there really isn't anything CSM can do in that situation.

As far as competitive edge, the additions in IA13 helped CSM a lot, but they're still lacking strong answers to flyers and superheavies, who are a very common matchup at big tournaments.

Edit: My list was-

Ahriman
ML3 Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs & Psychic Familiar
Cypher
9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs
9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs
9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs
Helbrute with Multimelta
Chaos Sicaran with Lascannons, Ceramite Armour, Dozer Blade
Chaos Fire Raptor with Autocannon turrets

Had a great time with our grudge match at LVO. Played the Space Wolf Thunderwolf list. Ended up going 3-3 myself. Curious to hear what other list you ended up facing to go 4-2 at LVO.

 Panzer1944 wrote:

 somerandomidiot wrote:
As someone who played CSM at the LVO, it really comes down to the fact that they don't have the cheap, powerful models that some armies have, and they don't have the mobility to grab all the maelstrom objectives that others have. I ended up going 4-2 with my single CAD CSM army, and one of the top 8 players was primary CSM (I believe his CSM CAD was a cheap sorcerer, 2 units of cultists, and a greater brass scorpion of khorne), so obviously the codex doesn't lack teeth at all, but it's definitely an uphill fight against armies like Tyranids, Imperial Knights, and Space Marines.

Round 2 I fought a player whose entire list was 3 Flyrants, 3 Mucaloids, and an Adamantine Lance in kill points- there really isn't anything CSM can do in that situation.

As far as competitive edge, the additions in IA13 helped CSM a lot, but they're still lacking strong answers to flyers and superheavies, who are a very common matchup at big tournaments.

Edit: My list was-

Ahriman
ML3 Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs & Psychic Familiar
Cypher
9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs
9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs
9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs
Helbrute with Multimelta
Chaos Sicaran with Lascannons, Ceramite Armour, Dozer Blade
Chaos Fire Raptor with Autocannon turrets

Had a great time with our grudge match at LVO. Played the Space Wolf Thunderwolf list. Ended up going 3-3 myself. Curious to hear what other list you ended up facing to go 4-2 at LVO.

Who could have believed in 1000 sons going better than TWC?!

Didn't LVO remove invisibility, which is kind of a important for deathstars builds.

Now I played against csm a lot. They were one of my main opponents in 5th and 6th. In 6th they were codex helldrake, in 7th they are one of the few armies that I can beat, which has to mean they are realy low in the food chain.

CSM can't reach the same kind of broken combinations that other codices can, and there are more weak units than there are strong ones. Mostly you see CSM as an allied detachment to bring a Heldrake and/or Sorcerer.

One thing I've been contemplating about though is that CSM players who fare well against other competitive armies are used to doing so with utterly bad tools. Should the new Codex be better ( not sure if it can get much worse ) crushing the competition should feel easy.

A bit like chipping away at a concrete wall with a needle file, when you're suddenly given a sledgehammer. Should everything in the new Codex simply become better ( I don't see anything that needs a nerf really or is likely to get one ) then how could you -not- start walking over the opposition ( should it remain similiar in it's current power level, ofcourse. )

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
I can with all certainty tell you that CSM are made to be the best CC MEQ(ish...). In 7th edition that isn't a compliment.

except other marine 'dexes get that CC weapon on their troop squads cheaper

CSM are primarily meant for narrative gaming. Since they play the role of the NPC they've been designed to be strictly worse than the Player Characters (i.e. space marines). They're not supposed to be competitive.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
CSM are primarily meant for narrative gaming. Since they play the role of the NPC they've been designed to be strictly worse than the Player Characters (i.e. space marines). They're not supposed to be competitive.

So, if you play CSM, you're supposed to lose? That doesn't help people who actually want to win and thought they were buying an awesomely tough army. What if, in their narrative, the CSM are the protagonists?

I do have to say that if your villains (CSM) are always meant to lose, then they pose no real threat and can't be taken seriously. They'll be like the battle droids from the Star Wars prequels instead of the Darth Vader they're supposed to be.

Also your explanation means it'll be unfun for people expecting a fair game and they'll get frustrated and go somewhere else. Also not good for the 40k community.

Just take a bunch of CSM with CC weapons and meltas - meltas on their rhinos, a few sorcerers and sicarians. Try to push them off the board with 60 marines with supporting fire. Play to your strengths and not your weaknesses and youll do fine with with CSM.

But you could do it with SW too and get ATKNF, drop pods , TWC , same sicurians and an option to ally in some centurions.
Here no SW play meq swarm lists. So playing csm that way would be playing a weaker version of an identical build from a different faction. Or is there something that makes CSM better then SW and swarming ?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
CSM are primarily meant for narrative gaming. Since they play the role of the NPC they've been designed to be strictly worse than the Player Characters (i.e. space marines). They're not supposed to be competitive.

I don't even use that philosophy in my RPGs. My main NPCs are incredibly dangerous.

 Panzer1944 wrote:

 somerandomidiot wrote:
As someone who played CSM at the LVO, it really comes down to the fact that they don't have the cheap, powerful models that some armies have, and they don't have the mobility to grab all the maelstrom objectives that others have. I ended up going 4-2 with my single CAD CSM army, and one of the top 8 players was primary CSM (I believe his CSM CAD was a cheap sorcerer, 2 units of cultists, and a greater brass scorpion of khorne), so obviously the codex doesn't lack teeth at all, but it's definitely an uphill fight against armies like Tyranids, Imperial Knights, and Space Marines.

Round 2 I fought a player whose entire list was 3 Flyrants, 3 Mucaloids, and an Adamantine Lance in kill points- there really isn't anything CSM can do in that situation.

As far as competitive edge, the additions in IA13 helped CSM a lot, but they're still lacking strong answers to flyers and superheavies, who are a very common matchup at big tournaments.

Edit: My list was-

Ahriman
ML3 Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs & Psychic Familiar
Cypher
9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs
9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs
9 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Force Axe, Melta Bombs
Helbrute with Multimelta
Chaos Sicaran with Lascannons, Ceramite Armour, Dozer Blade
Chaos Fire Raptor with Autocannon turrets

Had a great time with our grudge match at LVO. Played the Space Wolf Thunderwolf list. Ended up going 3-3 myself. Curious to hear what other list you ended up facing to go 4-2 at LVO.

Indeed, that was a great game! Lemme see here...

First game was White Scars bikes with Space Wofl allies, victory. He moved up really aggressively turn 1 and killed a unit of Thousand Sons, and I punished him for it by lancing doombolts across his lines of bikers, followed by a big charge with a bunch of Force Axe attacks. After that I just ground him down, and my Fire Raptor took care of both his Storm Wolf and Storm Talon.
Second game was Adamantine Lance with 3 Flyrants, loss. Not much I could do here in a kill points mission. Killed all 3 Flyrants and a Knight and a half, but it wasn't enough. Hilariously, Ahriman perils'd, rolled a 6, and picked up Armourbane for a turn, which let him literally carve a Knight in half by himself.
Third game was a Centurion Star with Draigo & Tigurius, loss. Could've had him, but I failed 3 Look Out Sir rolls in a row followed by 3 4+ invul saves and Ahriman died, thus losing any chance I had. My army has real issues dealing with Draigo, since he gets a 4+ deny the witch, reroll 1's against almost all of my AP1 & 2 shooting.
Fourth game was CSM with lots of Daemon Engines and Daemon allies, victory.
Fifth game was Space Wolves Thunder Wolf Cavalry with ALL stormshields (Panzer's army), I just pushed through so many wounds between multiple Doombolts and Psychic Shrieks, as well as the ability to Hit & Run with Cypher meant that I was able to focus on one unit at a time.
Sixth game was Eldar with Tau allies, I had to castle in the corner to avoid getting alpha striked, managed to use a big ruin in the middle of the table to move up, take a charge, and then hit & run right into the middle of his army, where I psychic shrieked like 6 broadsides to death, split off some characters, and multi-charged enough stuff that I took the teeth out of his army.

In the end, most of my killing power came from Doombolt, Psychic Shriek, and lots of Force Axe attacks with hatred against marines. Also, the Fire Raptor is incredible, and carried me through some games where I shouldn't have had much of a chance. It's definitely a finesse army, and I've been playing it for years. I wouldn't claim for a second that my results are anything approaching what the army should have done, but player skill and experience matter a LOT.

I feel the main problems with the current CSM codex is that it's still gained exactly 0 new upgrade options for the most part over the past 10 or so years... The only 'new' weapons being the Baleflamer and Hades Autocannon. Other than that, Chaos Marines have gotten sweet feth all.
Loylists meanwhile have been given back 'oodles of their old toys such as the Heavy/Hand flamers, Drop Pods, as well as new toys such as the variant Land Raiders & Grav weaponry...

Then there's also the problem of our model line that helps compound the above issue... Thanks to the Chapterhouse case, GW isn't going to give out any new options unless they can also push out a proper model kit alongside it.
Our model line is across the board, old, fugly and severely lacking in half or more of even our current options!

Fixing this clusterfeth is going to require GW to give us a Dark Eldar level of re-do release, as we currently only have 2 plastic non-vehicle kits that actually include all their actual options. (Termie Lord/Sorc & Raptor/Warptalon kits)


Until GW addresses the appalling state of our model line, it doesn't matter what the codex itself gives us, because we're too hamstrung by a dysfunctional model line that cannot provide us with new options to bring us up to the same levels as every other MEQ army.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
CSM are primarily meant for narrative gaming. Since they play the role of the NPC they've been designed to be strictly worse than the Player Characters (i.e. space marines). They're not supposed to be competitive.

So, if you play CSM, you're supposed to lose? That doesn't help people who actually want to win and thought they were buying an awesomely tough army. What if, in their narrative, the CSM are the protagonists?

I do have to say that if your villains (CSM) are always meant to lose, then they pose no real threat and can't be taken seriously. They'll be like the battle droids from the Star Wars prequels instead of the Darth Vader they're supposed to be.

Also your explanation means it'll be unfun for people expecting a fair game and they'll get frustrated and go somewhere else. Also not good for the 40k community.

What he said is a joke, a pretty obvious one at that.