Xiphon Interceptor Rules for 40k

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**Poly Ranger**

Thank you! Wow - that looks awesome!

**Vaktathi**

Poly Ranger wrote:
It has less firepower than a raven... people need to start seeing this.
It also lacks the durability of the raven, and the transport cap. Yet costs 5pts more.

Not only does it have less firepower than the raven on a single turn, but it will have a lot less firepower over the course of the game due to being destroyed much earlier on average.

The Xiphon can engage a target from the other side of the board or Deep Strike into position to get a clean shot at Rear Armor, the Stormraven's MM and Assault Cannons are much shorter ranged. The Stormraven also has limited missiles, and if engaging another Armored Ceramite flyer (like a Storm Raven, Storm Eagle, Fire Raptor) then that MM is much less effective.

**Poly Ranger**

That is true - I hadn't considered ceremite at all. And ceremite is on a large amount of imperial fliers that are common. Very good point.
Range I have never once found an issue however.
As to the missiles - the raven has a much longer life span by the looks of it. It's very likely (not saying definite) that we will find the XRML and tl lascannons of the Xiphon are as one shot as the stormravens missiles. Whereas the tl mm and tl ac will be firing a lot longer.
The rear armour deepstrike is another point I had not considered.

Still, its greater ability to damage ceremite targets and deepstrike doesn't make up for lower front and side armour, 1 less hp, lack of transport cap and 5pts in my eyes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Despite it not benefiting from one of the XRMLs special rules, I think the Xiphon is also probably going to be better mathmatically against FMCs due to the low ap of its 4 shots and 2 of them forcing rerolled jink saves. Not by much, but I think it will be ahead of the raven in that respect.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just realised it's d3 rolls due to cluster warhead not 3 rolls. My maths before accounted for it gerting the whole 3 rolls. Therefore the MM may actually come out on top (against non ceremite targets).

On a side note: the cluster warhead rule is what railguns are missing to make them king of tank killing.

**Vaktathi**

Yeah, I think engaging FMC's is going to really be where the Xiphon shines. On average it should be putting 2 wounds a turn on a Jinking Flyrant, which is pretty solid.

EDIT: yeah, the D3 should *largely* equal out to be similar to having AP1, better if it gets the full 3, worse of it only gets 1, *very* slightly worse (almost identical) if it gets 2 in terms of explodes results averages vs AP1.

**Poly Ranger**

Yeh the MM is ever so enney weeny slightly better if the XRML is averaging at 2 on the d3.
MM is 1/3 to explode which is 12/36
XRML is 1- 5/6 x 5/6 = 11/36

This difference of course pales into insignificance when you multiply the rolls to hit, pen, avoid jink as well.

**Vaktathi**

Yeah, that was the same conclusion I came to, I think it'd be better if they just made the missiles AP1 and got rid of the extra rolls altogether.

**Peregrine**

Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah, that was the same conclusion I came to, I think it'd be better if they just made the missiles AP1 and got rid of the extra rolls altogether.

What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?

**Thairne**

Poly Ranger wrote:
Yeh the MM is ever so enney weeny slightly better if the XRML is averaging at 2 on the d3.
MM is 1/3 to explode which is 12/36
XRML is 1- 5/6 x 5/6 = 11/36

This difference of course pales into insignificance when you multiply the rolls to hit, pen, avoid jink as well.

And factor in that you do not have to be within 12" do do that and therefore can stay safer out of weapons range.
Fly in 18", jink, supersonic off to come in again. I still think that's pretty much the most reasonable way to play this glas cannon.

**Poly Ranger**

Yeh you definitely don't want that in rapid fire range of a Tau gunline. Even firewarriors would have a field day with it.

**BrianDavion**

the missile launcher is 60 inches in range. it seems clear to me it's designed for standoffs. and to destroy it's opponent before it gets in range. comparing the missile launcher to a MM is a bit silly honestly. ones a knife fighting weapon, the others a one of the longer ranged weapons in the game. I think a better comparison would be the storm talon's skyhammer missiles.

**Rippy**

I love the idea of this flier, it looks great and can pew pew alot the turn it comes on. I think it would be better around the 170-180 point mark though with current HP/AV.

**BrianDavion**

BTW has anyone else noticed that Grey Knights can take this flier? think this is the first peice of heresy kit Grey Knights have been given

**Rippy**

BrianDavion wrote:
BTW has anyone else noticed that Grey Knights can take this flier? think this is the first peice of heresy kit Grey Knights have been given

Lol yeah while they are experimental. Once rules are printed GK will be taken out for sure

**BrianDavion**

Rippy wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
BTW has anyone else noticed that Grey Knights can take this flier? think this is the first peice of heresy kit Grey Knights have been given

Lol yeah while they are experimental. Once rules are printed GK will be taken out for sure

eh maybe, on the other hand, the removal of special GK specific rules proably makes it easier to include them. they no longer have to figure out "ok how many points extra for psykic pilot and what special powers should it get?"

**the_Armyman**

Poly Ranger wrote:
Copy-Paste from above. With added bits to show where fractions came from.

A tl mm inside 12" melta range (easy to do on a flyer) shooting at a jinking av12 flyer:

8/9 x 5/6 x 1/2 x 1/3 = 12.3% chance of explodes result.
(Chance to hit at tl bs4 x chance to pen av12 with st8 melta x chance to get past jink x chance to explodes with ap1)

A XRML shooting at a jinking av12 flyer:

1 shot. 2/3 x 1/3 x 3/4 x 91/216 = 7%
(Chance to hit at bs4 x chance to pen av12 with st8 x chance to get past jink x chance to explodes with ap2)
2 shots. 1 - 0.93 x 0.93 = 13.5% chance of explodes result.
(Inverse of not exploding)
Here is where the 91/216 has come from: 1-5/6*5/6*5/6 for the Xiphon gives a 91/216 (this is the inverse of not exploding with 3 rolls)

The XRML has a 1.2% better chance of exploding an AV12 jinking flyer than a tl MM. If we are talking about hps lost rather than penning, one of the XRMLs special jazzy rules won't even apply.

The tl assault cannon is exactly the same chance as a tl lascannon (only against av12 - against absolutely anything else the ac is better).
(Can demonstrate if desired - but has been shown on multiple threads for years)

So thats 3 st8 ap2 missiles left from the raven compared to 1 tl lascannon shot left from the Xiphon.
(Haven't done the maths on this but assuming that 3 st8 ap2 shots will do more damage than 1 tl st9 ap2 - I think this is self evident but I can do the maths if you would like)

So the Stormraven slightly outshoots the Xiphon against av12 with a 4+ cover/jink. Without 4+ cover/jink, it will do noticeably better.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: if opponents are not in your arc of fire you won't be able to fire the tlMM, but neither will you be able to fire your XRML. If it is in your arc of fire, then a 18-36" move plus a 12" melta range will mean you are almost certainly going to be in melta range.

Two problems. I don't accept your basic premise that the t-l MM is always going to get 2d6 pen, especially not against another flyer with Armored Ceramite and most likely not if you're coming on before your opponent's flyer. And why are you only comparing it to AV12? Do other armor values/toughness not reinforce your point sufficiently? Also, after 2 turns of shooting, the SR loses significant firepower. Is the game over by then?

Just because they're both flyers and cost the same, does not mean that Mathhammer is a good measure of their effectiveness.

**Poly Ranger**

That's already been discussed above, I had not taken armoured ceremite into accout. However range is never an issue, if it would be in your fire arc anyway, all it needs to be is within 48". If it's not in your firearc the neither weapon would have been able to shoot at it anyway. So coming on before your opponents flier makes no difference to the comparison (aside from maybe the Xiphon having a more likely chance of being shot down).
After 2 turns of shooting the SR has lost some of its firepower. The Xiphon will have lost all its firpower as it will very likely be dead and the game will be over for it.
I only compared to av12 for 2 reasons, firstly, any other value and a tl ac on the stormraven becomes mathmatically better than a tl lc. Secondly it was the first day of my holiday. I am a maths teacher - I did not fancy sitting down and working out the differences between the two for:
-Av10
-Av10 with jink/4+ cover
-Av11
-Av11 with jink/4+ cover
-Av12
-Av12 with 3+ jink (serp)
-Av12 with ceremite
-Av12 with ceremite and jink/4+ cover
-Av13
-Av13 with jink/4+ cover
-Av13 with ceremite
-Av13 with ceremite and jink/4+ cover
-Av14
-Av14 with jink/4+ cover
-Av14 with ceremite
-Av14 with ceremite and jink/4+ cover
-T5
-T5 with jink
-T5 3+/5++
-T5 3+/5++ with jink
-T6
-T6 with jink
-T6 3+
-T6 3+ with jink

Maybe you would like to?
I may oblige at a later date when I am more free.

Math hammer is a perfect (literally) method of comparing its damage output. However I also took into accout the higher durability and transport capacity of the raven when looking at effectiveness. The only real advantages the Xiphon gets are +1 to its jink (which ruins its firepower), and as Nevelon pinted out earlier, its DS potential to get rear shots.

**greyknight12**

For the deepstrike advocates, remember that it can mishap, and cannot evade (aka jink) on the turn it comes in if it chooses to deepstrike.

**Rippy**

I can't see it worth deep striking in anyway to be honest.

**Peregrine**

greyknight12 wrote:
For the deepstrike advocates, remember that it can mishap, and cannot evade (aka jink) on the turn it comes in if it chooses to deepstrike.

At least in 30k. IMO including those rules in the 40k version was a mistake because no such limits on deep striking flyers exist in the normal game of 40k and the unit rules present it as "here's a reminder about the general rules in case you forgot", not "here's some new limits for this specific unit".

**the_Armyman**

Poly Ranger wrote:
That's already been discussed above, I had not taken armoured ceremite into accout. However range is never an issue, if it would be in your fire arc anyway, all it needs to be is within 48". If it's not in your firearc the neither weapon would have been able to shoot at it anyway. So coming on before your opponents flier makes no difference to the comparison (aside from maybe the Xiphon having a more likely chance of being shot down).

Why in the world is range not an issue? You use it as an integral part of your points (since meltas ALWAYS get 2d6 pen) but no one else can mention it since it doesn't fit into your equations? It's also perfectly reasonable to think one flyer is not in a firing arc of another when going head to head with another flyer. We started this discussion that the Storm Raven was superior in every way to the Xiphon as an air superiority fighter. Has the discussion changed? The Xiphon is not a ground attack aircraft.

After 2 turns of shooting the SR has lost some of its firepower. The Xiphon will have lost all its firpower as it will very likely be dead and the game will be over for it.

Again, this is a fallacy you have constructed to validate the math in your favor.

I only compared to av12 for 2 reasons, firstly, any other value and a tl ac on the stormraven becomes mathmatically better than a tl lc.

You're right, mathematically better than one t-l lascannon. The Xiphon has two.

Secondly it was the first day of my holiday. I am a maths teacher - I did not fancy sitting down and working out the differences between the two for:
-Av10
-Av10 with jink/4+ cover
-Av11
-Av11 with jink/4+ cover
-Av12
-Av12 with 3+ jink (serp)
-Av12 with ceremite
-Av12 with ceremite and jink/4+ cover
-Av13
-Av13 with jink/4+ cover
-Av13 with ceremite
-Av13 with ceremite and jink/4+ cover
-Av14
-Av14 with jink/4+ cover
-Av14 with ceremite
-Av14 with ceremite and jink/4+ cover
-T5
-T5 with jink
-T5 3+/5++
-T5 3+/5++ with jink
-T6
-T6 with jink
-T6 3+
-T6 3+ with jink

Maybe you would like to?
I may oblige at a later date when I am more free.

Nope. You've proven your credentials as the math guy. I'm a random uneducated internet denizen consuming your invaluable time

Math hammer is a perfect (literally) method of comparing its damage output. However I also took into accout the higher durability and transport capacity of the raven when looking at effectiveness. The only real advantages the Xiphon gets are +1 to its jink (which ruins its firepower), and as Nevelon pinted out earlier, its DS potential to get rear shots.

Why is damage output the metric? Damage output is the metric because it's easy for math to do all the discussion for you. I like math. Math is important. But people use it as an infallible truth and smugly hide behind it to silence debate in 40K.

**Big Blind Bill**

I like math. Math is important. But people use it as an infallible truth and smugly hide behind it to silence debate in 40K.

But it is an infallible truth. And it is useful in settling debates because of this.

The xiphon damage output is good, but not too far ahead of it's competitors in an anti vehicle role. (Stormraven and Fireraptor).

In exchange it is much (MUCH) less durable, and lacks the versatility of being a transport, or having great anti infantry firepower with multiple targeting capability.

If the xiphon had even more firepower I still probably wouldn't take it, the other options bring much more to the table imo.

Also, I think the name 'xiphon' is a little silly.

**the_Armyman**

Big Blind Bill wrote:
I like math. Math is important. But people use it as an infallible truth and smugly hide behind it to silence debate in 40K.
But it is an infallible truth. And it is useful in settling debates because of this.

When variables are controlled, and we're comparing like to like, I agree. It makes sense to compare 2 guardsmen with lasguns against a Space Marine with a boltgun since they fill identical rules in the game and have comparable weapons. A Xiphon is an air superiority fighter that uses range and high-S guns with anti-flyer mechanics to its advantage. Comparing it to a Storm Raven simply on the basis of its guns, and then ignoring the limitations of said guns to make a point with math is where I find fault.

**Big Blind Bill**

the_Armyman wrote:
Big Blind Bill wrote:
I like math. Math is important. But people use it as an infallible truth and smugly hide behind it to silence debate in 40K.
But it is an infallible truth. And it is useful in settling debates because of this.

When variables are controlled, and we're comparing like to like, I agree. It makes sense to compare 2 guardsmen with lasguns against a Space Marine with a boltgun since they fill identical rules in the game and have comparable weapons. A Xiphon is an air superiority fighter that uses range and high-S guns with anti-flyer mechanics to its advantage. Comparing it to a Storm Raven simply on the basis of its guns, and then ignoring the limitations of said guns to make a point with math is where I find fault.

Sure, all information must be included.

I'm sure everyone reading this is aware of the limitations of getting into a 12 inch melta range, when compared to the 48 range weapons of the xiphon, even if they don't want to admit it.

With that said, and the problems with melta range included, I'm still not convinced the siphon's added firepower is worth the drop in survivability and utility.

I'm most interested in the comparison between the xiphon and the fireraptor, as opposed to the Stormraven.

The Xiphon and the fireraptor are both gunships, plain and simple, and so are much more easy to weigh up.

For a supposed air superiority fighter, the xiphon compares very similarly to a fireraptor when shooting at light to medium vehicles.

Damage in hull points
Vs AV12: xiphon 1.85, Fireraptor 1.7
Vs AV11: xiphon 2.3, Fireraptor 2.9
Vs AV10: xiphon 2.9, Fireraptor 4.2

As we can see, the fireraptor is much more efficient at shredding light vehicles.

Not considered in this is that the xiphon is much more likely to cause an explodes result, and its missiles causing jinks to be re-rolled.
If shooting a jinking flyer the AV10 and 11 results would be closer, and AV12 more in the xiphon's favour.

Once the damage output of each plane has been considered though, the xiphon really is left behind by the raptors durability and anti infantry potential.

If FW wants the xiphon to sell well to players (rather than collectors) alongside the fireraptor, then I'd expect some rule/points changes.

**the_Armyman**

The Fire Raptor is fantastic. Arguably undercosted. But the Xiphon is not a gunship. It's an air superiority fighter: it fights other flyers. That's all it does. It's the difference between the F-16A and the F-15E. We can argue the merits of such a niche role, but there it is.

**Tamwulf**

The rules are experimental; expect a cost decrease into the 170's range, and Grey Knights removed from the list of armies that can take it. The armored ceramite should be an option, not built into the craft. Reduce the cost of the craft to 170, and make Armored Ceramite a +20 point option and then you will see this in 40K.

What's up with the 30K version? No armored ceramite, and Ground Tracking Augries as a points option? Should be included in the cost of the vehicle. I'd still rather take a Lightning or Fireraptor over this.

Beautiful model! Very obviously inspired by the Battlestar Galactica Colonial Viper. My one critique? They could have done something else with the nose. Either made it a rounded radome, or smooth concave shape. It almost looks like some kind of assault ramp from the Space Wolves Storm Wolf. Who knows? Maybe that cockpit canopy doesn't open and the pilot has to crawl through the fuselage to get into the cockpit.

**Big Blind Bill**

the_Armyman wrote:
The Fire Raptor is fantastic. Arguably undercosted. But the Xiphon is not a gunship. It's an air superiority fighter: it fights other flyers. That's all it does. It's the difference between the F-16A and the F-15E. We can argue the merits of such a niche role, but there it is.

Sure the fluffy might say so, but is there anything in the rules that says it is an air superiority fighter?

As it is, both flyers are simply platforms for heavy weapons. They have no designated battlefield role beyond shoot the enemy, whether it is flying or otherwise.

If the xiphon had some special rules that made it better vs flyers (like the eldar flyer with its aerial hunter and vector dancer) then I would agree on it being an air superiority fighter. As it is it is just another flyer with heavy weapons, and should be judged as such.

**the_Armyman**

Big Blind Bill wrote:
the_Armyman wrote:
The Fire Raptor is fantastic. Arguably undercosted. But the Xiphon is not a gunship. It's an air superiority fighter: it fights other flyers. That's all it does. It's the difference between the F-16A and the F-15E. We can argue the merits of such a niche role, but there it is.
Sure the fluffy might say so, but is there anything in the rules that says it is an air superiority fighter?

As it is, both flyers are simply platforms for heavy weapons. They have no designated battlefield role beyond shoot the enemy, whether it is flying or otherwise.

If the xiphon had some special rules that made it better vs flyers (like the eldar flyer with its aerial hunter and vector dancer) then I would agree on it being an air superiority fighter. As it is it is just another flyer with heavy weapons, and should be judged as such.

It's called a Xiphon Pattern Interceptor.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interceptor_aircraft

Also, the rules for XRML don't strike you as being a little specific as to its intended targets?

**Big Blind Bill**

the_Armyman wrote:
Big Blind Bill wrote:
the_Armyman wrote:
The Fire Raptor is fantastic. Arguably undercosted. But the Xiphon is not a gunship. It's an air superiority fighter: it fights other flyers. That's all it does. It's the difference between the F-16A and the F-15E. We can argue the merits of such a niche role, but there it is.
Sure the fluffy might say so, but is there anything in the rules that says it is an air superiority fighter?

As it is, both flyers are simply platforms for heavy weapons. They have no designated battlefield role beyond shoot the enemy, whether it is flying or otherwise.

If the xiphon had some special rules that made it better vs flyers (like the eldar flyer with its aerial hunter and vector dancer) then I would agree on it being an air superiority fighter. As it is it is just another flyer with heavy weapons, and should be judged as such.

It's called a Xiphon Pattern Interceptor.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interceptor_aircraft

Also, the rules for XRML don't strike you as being a little specific as to its intended targets?

I said besides the fluff.

The rules for the XRML strike me as being anti armour, not anti flyer specifically. There are lots of skimmers out there after all, and a greater number of damage table rolls is good vs any AV target that can get penetrated.

It is just as effective as an anti armour attack craft as a superiority fighter.

**Furyou Miko**

It was designed for 30k. Name a skimmer in 30k other than the Land Speeder.

**Whiskey144**

Why, the Javelin Attack Speeder of course!

It's totally not just a pimped-out regular Land speeder, not in the slightest.