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Demon herald has one wound left, casts possession to turn into a GUO. He super perils with 4 six's.

The spell is successful but the demon died during his possession. Does the GUO come in? If you die being possessed do you just turn into the GUO?

Chicken before the egg?

Yes the GUO still comes in because the power was successful even though the caster periled. The power doesn't depend on the caster still beingalive or having wounds to donate or anything. Although fluff-wise the original herald is getting possessed, the power is RAW just creating a new unit.
Also it's not really worth rolling on the perils table anyway to see if the herald dies because he is immediately removed anyway due to the power going off.

Do perils happen before or after the power's resolved?

The perils are resolved immediately after incurring, but the psychic power is resolved either way. So even if the caster is dead, the witchfire/summon/possession occurs.

That is if you get the warp charges you need, of course-

There is an argument that, without the psyker being present, certain powers can no longer be resolved. FOr example witchfire requires a range between the psyker and the target unit, which is undefined if the psyker is not present.

The perils rules specifically mention that the power still manifests even if the psyker is slain by the effects of a perils roll. The timing isn't clear to me, but it seems like the effects of perils are simultaneous with the power manifesting, and so the controlling player would simply choose to first resolve the effects of his psychic power, and then resolve the effects of the perils.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
The perils rules specifically mention that the power still manifests even if the psyker is slain by the effects of a perils roll. The timing isn't clear to me, but it seems like the effects of perils are simultaneous with the power manifesting, and so the controlling player would simply choose to first resolve the effects of his psychic power, and then resolve the effects of the perils.

They explicitly aren't simultaneous.


So if you suffer Perils, it's resolved immediately - during step 3. You can't resolve the power until step 5.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Also it's not really worth rolling on the perils table anyway to see if the herald dies because he is immediately removed anyway due to the power going off.

This isn't true. If you roll a 1 for Perils, and fail Ld, then if the Herald was in a unit that unit will take some hits.
So rolling on the Perils table is necessary, even if it's an unlikely result.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Also it's not really worth rolling on the perils table anyway to see if the herald dies because he is immediately removed anyway due to the power going off.

This isn't true. If you roll a 1 for Perils, and fail Ld, then if the Herald was in a unit that unit will take some hits.
So rolling on the Perils table is necessary, even if it's an unlikely result.

Fair enough, I forgot about that one and it's true the unit could be affected in that case. In terms of the Herald though, he's going to die anyway.

 koooaei wrote:
Do perils happen before or after the power's resolved?

After, assuming the power wasn't denied. So it doesn't matter.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Do perils happen before or after the power's resolved?

After, assuming the power wasn't denied. So it doesn't matter.

False. Per the actual rules that I've quoted in this thread, perils is resolved immediately when they are suffered.
Which is when they're rolled. And then you roll to deny. And then the power is resolved.

Ahh you are correct. I forgot the perils sentence was in step3 and not 5.

Although the power must still be resolved assuming it was successful and wasn't denied.

And assuming it's possible - as mentioned, witchfires it wouldn't be.

I wonder if it isn't intended that you still resolve the power as if the psyker was still there. Because the wording under Perils says that, as long as the power isn't denied, you still resolve the power even if the psyker dies. it doesn't give permission to not resolve the power.

Right, so you resolve the power as far as you can.

If you get to any step while resolving the power that requires the psyker to be on the board, the power has finished resolving, because there are no further steps to take.

So, for example, if you had a power that said "Do a pirouette, then smoke a cigarette, then make a shooting attack with the model that cast this power" you would do the first two steps (as the power's resolution) but the power stops resolving as soon as you need to make a shooting attack, because there is no value for range or line of sight.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wonder if it isn't intended that you still resolve the power as if the psyker was still there. Because the wording under Perils says that, as long as the power isn't denied, you still resolve the power even if the psyker dies. it doesn't give permission to not resolve the power.

I agree with this. The perils rules explicitly tell us that the power still manifests, and targetting has already been done before the psychic test. It's very clear. If it were intended that you couldn't manifest the power due to not being able to measure range etc. anymore there would be no point in having the additional rule saying the power still manifests. All of the powers (at least in the BRB) either have a range involved (or target the psyker itself so the effects won't be relevant).

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wonder if it isn't intended that you still resolve the power as if the psyker was still there. Because the wording under Perils says that, as long as the power isn't denied, you still resolve the power even if the psyker dies. it doesn't give permission to not resolve the power.

I agree with this. The perils rules explicitly tell us that the power still manifests, and targetting has already been done before the psychic test. It's very clear. If it were intended that you couldn't manifest the power due to not being able to measure range etc. anymore there would be no point in having the additional rule saying the power still manifests. All of the powers (at least in the BRB) either have a range involved (or target the psyker itself so the effects won't be relevant).

Would this not be similar to "Gets Hot!"?

If a Marine with a plasma gun is in Rapid Fire, and rolls a 1 and a 6 to hit.
You then immediately resolve the gets hot.
Then we roll to wound.
etc.

If the Marine died, the other shot doesn't just "disappear", unless I've missed something there?

 Ond Angel wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wonder if it isn't intended that you still resolve the power as if the psyker was still there. Because the wording under Perils says that, as long as the power isn't denied, you still resolve the power even if the psyker dies. it doesn't give permission to not resolve the power.

I agree with this. The perils rules explicitly tell us that the power still manifests, and targetting has already been done before the psychic test. It's very clear. If it were intended that you couldn't manifest the power due to not being able to measure range etc. anymore there would be no point in having the additional rule saying the power still manifests. All of the powers (at least in the BRB) either have a range involved (or target the psyker itself so the effects won't be relevant).

Would this not be similar to "Gets Hot!"?

If a Marine with a plasma gun is in Rapid Fire, and rolls a 1 and a 6 to hit.
You then immediately resolve the gets hot.
Then we roll to wound.
etc.

If the Marine died, the other shot doesn't just "disappear", unless I've missed something there?

In that example the LOS and Range 'tests' have already gone by, and the hit/wound pools do not require models to be on the table after that point, after finishing up perils you can then manifest the power as according to it's entry, so is less clear, as for witchfires you can still manifest the power, but then can not resolve the shooting process without the model.

So for gets hot the part which requires the model has gone by, for witchfires the part which requires the model is after perils when you manifest.


IMO, It's hard to say intent, as not all of circumstances will not cause the loss of a model, so the fact failing a perils does not 'necessarily mean that a psychic power fails to manifest. Assuming that the Psychic test was successful and any Deny the Witch test failed, the psychic power still manifests' is not a clear indicator. Neither is permission to manifest permission to resolve the power to it's full extent where other circumstances mean it can not.


Edit; I'm going to change that a bit to the power range should over ride the range needed for shooting for the WF, so with that step skipped in the shooting phase then indeed there may be no more need for the model anyway.

Part of the possession rules involve you removing the Psyker.
Something not possible if it was already removed due to perils.