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The rulebook FAQ states: " An independent character without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment and vice versa"

The language seems to state that this would only apply to a unit deploying with infiltrate, "group of infiltrators" as opposed to "a unit with the infiltrate special rule"

The infiltrate description in the BRB seems to indicate that units with infiltrate MUST deploy using that rule.

As the title states, can an independent character without infiltrate join a unit with the infiltrate special rule if they do not deploy using this rule? Can a unit of infiltrators NOT deploy via infiltrate?

Thoughts?

Currently the rules state they may not deploy together, and that if you have infiltrate then you must use it.

The only way a unit with infiltrate cannot deploy via infiltrate is to use outflank.

That is also the only way to join an IC without infiltrate to an unit with infiltrate- by outflanking them from reserves.

well, here is my question, if they were instead to be deep striking together, both arriving in a pod, can they be joined?

By placing them in a pod you are joining them in reserves which is the same as joining them to outflank .

 gameandwatch wrote:
The rulebook FAQ states: " An independent character without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment and vice versa"

The language seems to state that this would only apply to a unit deploying with infiltrate, "group of infiltrators" as opposed to "a unit with the infiltrate special rule"

The infiltrate description in the BRB seems to indicate that units with infiltrate MUST deploy using that rule.

As the title states, can an independent character without infiltrate join a unit with the infiltrate special rule if they do not deploy using this rule? Can a unit of infiltrators NOT deploy via infiltrate?

Thoughts?

The rules use the terms Infiltrate and Infiltrators interchangeably; a unit with the Infiltrate special rule is a unit of Infiltrators. There is no such thing as infiltrating or deploying with Infiltrate; if a unit has this special rule it is simply deployed last and has the ability to deploy differently to units without the rule.

As it stands, regardless of whether models are deployed within the normal deployment zone, are joined when being placed into Deep Strike Reserve or any other method of joining, they cannot be joined by the rules.

Yep - even outflanking there's no way to join an IC to a unit unless he has it himself

Wait I am confused, I seem to have conflicting answers from you guys. Is being held in reserve considered joining during deployment or is holding them in reserve the only way they can join?

They are not being deployed, hence not using infiltrate, and not outflanking with the infiltrate rule, they are being held in reserve aboard a transport deep striking in.

 gameandwatch wrote:
Wait I am confused, I seem to have conflicting answers from you guys. Is being held in reserve considered joining during deployment or is holding them in reserve the only way they can join?

They are not being deployed, hence not using infiltrate, and not outflanking with the infiltrate rule, they are being held in reserve aboard a transport deep striking in.

From the rulebook, on combined reserve units:

"During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle."

Combined reserve units must be joined at deployment, and this is not able to be done with an Infiltrate/non-Infiltrate combination.

There is no such thing as "using Infiltrate" in the same way that there is no such thing as using "Rapid Fire". Only units with (and without) Infiltrate, which are also known as Infiltrators.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:
Wait I am confused, I seem to have conflicting answers from you guys. Is being held in reserve considered joining during deployment or is holding them in reserve the only way they can join?

They are not being deployed, hence not using infiltrate, and not outflanking with the infiltrate rule, they are being held in reserve aboard a transport deep striking in.

From the rulebook, on combined reserve units:

"During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle."

Combined reserve units must be joined at deployment, and this is not able to be done with an Infiltrate/non-Infiltrate combination.

There is no such thing as "using Infiltrate" in the same way that there is no such thing as using "Rapid Fire". Only units with (and without) Infiltrate, which are also known as Infiltrators.

This.

Thanks, thought as much just needed to be sure

Blacktoof and Azgrim , you do understand that isn't possible right? Deployment, is deployment...

But the rules are quite tricky on that part.

From what i've read so far, it states in the Infiltrate special rule entry: "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last."
Where as it states in the IC entry, that they can't join units with infiltrate, if they don't have it themselves.
But that seems very odd, because why would I be allowed to place a Unit that has only one model with infiltrate in it, but I am not allowed to join
a model without the SR?

The only condition for Infiltrators is, that ONE MODEL must have it.
So why the heck can't I join a IC without it? It makes no sense.

Because GW doesn't want you to Infiltrate a lot of people in the face of the enemy - just a bit of them. Generally each codex has only 1 or 2 units with Infiltrate, and they aren't very powerful anyway. The moment you put an IC there, they can become quite better (even if only as extra Wounds to the IC) or a IC infiltrating a powerful but short-ranged unit (i.e. Fire Dragons) while they normally wouldn't be able to.

Not letting people Infiltrate whatever they want is an attempt towards balancing by GW. Balance attempts normally have nothing to do with sense

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Combined reserve units must be joined at deployment, and this is not able to be done with an Infiltrate/non-Infiltrate combination.

Actually incorrect. Infiltrators must wait until other units are deployed before they can be deployed, true. Being placed in Reserves is NOT being deployed, though, it is changing the unit's deploying time. So, this really has no actual timing affect in regards to units with Infiltrate and units without.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
There is no such thing as "using Infiltrate" in the same way that there is no such thing as using "Rapid Fire". Only units with (and without) Infiltrate, which are also known as Infiltrators.

Yes, and no. When deploying during Deployment, units with Infiltrate are definitely Infiltrators and have no choice in being deployed with Infiltrate's timing.

----

I would point out the -or suffix simply means "a person who does the root verb". Now, this could be used as a present tense or as a one who CAN do it. In other words, an Infiltrator could either be "I am deploying using Infiltrate", or it could also mean, "I have Infiltrate". The rulebook does not actually define this term as to which it is.

The only times "infiltrator" is used in the rulebook is the limit with Independent Characters, having Scouts wait until Infiltrators have deployed before redeploying, and the actual deploying of units with Infiltrate. If we use this as the determiner for the definition, than a model like a Destroyer Lord could join a unit of Flayed Ones for Deep Strike, and Shrike could do similar with Jump Pack Assault/Vanguard Marine Squads or get them to Outflank.

Do note, though, that many people will prefer to use the "model has it" definition instead of "model IS doing it" definition. One should always check with the TO/Opponent to understand where they lie on this line, and unless you have experience with them, should plan on the more restrictive "Infiltrators are units that possess Infiltrate" definition to avoid problems until you know for sure.

For the first bit Charistoph: we have been over this(I think you and I specifically, but not certain).

When you are in the deployment of your army is when you prepare reserves. When you are preparing reserves you do not deploy the unit but you do declare them in reserves at that time and prepare them in the type of reserves they are entering(outflank, deepstrike, or normal).

So when you are going through deployment your non-infiltrators are going to be prepared, then after both sides are done with deployment your infiltrators get prepared. At this point it is too late for infiltrate to have any effect on the non-infiltrate unit(your infiltrators can be prepared in outflank but whatever non-infiltrators they wanted to take with them will already be prepared as normal or, if they have it, deepstrike). The only way to get a non-infiltrator unit to join/be joined to an Infiltrator unit in outflank is if the non-infiltrator has scouts(or just plain outflank); but the FAQ still denies this(cannot deploy with/be deployed with means they cannot come out of reserves).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
When you are in the deployment of your army is when you prepare reserves. When you are preparing reserves you do not deploy the unit but you do declare them in reserves at that time and prepare them in the type of reserves they are entering(outflank, deepstrike, or normal).

So when you are going through deployment your non-infiltrators are going to be prepared, then after both sides are done with deployment your infiltrators get prepared. At this point it is too late for infiltrate to have any effect on the non-infiltrate unit(your infiltrators can be prepared in outflank but whatever non-infiltrators they wanted to take with them will already be prepared as normal or, if they have it, deepstrike). The only way to get a non-infiltrator unit to join/be joined to an Infiltrator unit in outflank is if the non-infiltrator has scouts(or just plain outflank); but the FAQ still denies this(cannot deploy with/be deployed with means they cannot come out of reserves).

That does not match Deployment and the Infiltrate rule at all.

BRB wrote:Standard Deployment Method
The following sequence is used in most Warhammer 40,000 missions:
1. The players roll off. The winner of the roll-off decides who will deploy first and who will deploy second.
2. The side deploying first must set up all the units in their army.
3. Then the other side sets up all the units in their army.
4. The player that deployed first can choose to take the first or second turn. If they decide to take the first turn, their opponent can attempt to Seize the Initiative.

BRB wrote:INFILTRATE
Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed.

Infiltrate only affects the timing of a unit in deployment when they are being deployed (though, I suppose it SHOULD technically affect after deployment, too, the way it is phrased). Being put in Reserves is not being deployed. Infiltrate does not state it happens after deployment, and only addresses those units being deployed. The only time Reserves is mentioned in Infiltrate is when addressing Outflank and has nothing to do with the ordering of declaring them in Reserves.

Also, the FAQ does not say anything about deploying, it says they "cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment...", not deploying. Deployment is only used during game setup and nowhere else. Deploying is used when putting a unit on the table during deployment or arriving from Reserves in any of the three methods.

Which is why the definition of "Infiltrator" as to being a "currently doing" or "possessor" is important. If in the case of "possessor" (which is what it means to me), then no, not even for Reserves can they join since they are always Infiltrators even when they cannot. While the "currently doing" definition would allow them to be joined in Reserves.

Now add to that the reserves rules:
"Preparing reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arive later."

So when you at the deployment step of pre-game you deploy your forces or hold them in reserves. If you hold a unit in reserves it is usually in normal reserves. Deepstrike and outflank add special reserves subsets via their own rules:
Deep strike
"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by deep strike(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."
Outflank
"During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflan the enemy."

Outflank then goes on to explain that the unit using the special rule and arriving from reserves uses the function of the rule; so the "deployment" mentioned in the second word of the rule is not the act of deploying, but the pre_game step.

Take all the rules, look at how they interact:
1) during deployment you choose units to deploy or hold in reserve.
2) there are 3 states of reserves: default, deep striking, or outflanking; the latter 2 must be declared when you are placing the unit in reserves.
3) infiltrators do not deploy at the same time as the rest of your army, they must wait until all non-infiltrators on both sides have deployed(and by extension placed in reserves)
4) if no models in the unit have outflank when being prepared for reserves, then they cannot outflank. Wether this is the non-infiltrate IC or unit does not matter; that unit does not have the rule and cannot outflank(again scouts or just plain outflank would have allowed it if not for the FAQ)

3) is not actually stated in the rules. You could argue that all reserves including those for infiltrators happen at the same time. Reserves are declared when your army deploys not when each unit is deployed. So the fact infiltrators deploy later never becomes active as they are held in reserve instead. Unless you have rules that allow reserves to occur at the infiltration step?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

3) infiltrators do not deploy at the same time as the rest of your army, they must wait until all non-infiltrators on both sides have deployed(and by extension placed in reserves)

And where does it say that Reserves are declared when you would deploy the unit? It just says that during deployment you put them in Reserves or deploy them. Infiltrate sure doesn't state this restriction.

Yes it does, I quoted it: you put them in reserves instead of deploying.

They do not deploy until both sides have deployed.

You declare Reserves instead of deploying.

It cannot get any clearer.

That is one way to read it. The rules don't actually say that though. They say organising reserves happens when you deploy your army and that units put in reserve don't deploy.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Yes it does, I quoted it: you put them in reserves instead of deploying.

True on the second part, but not the first. The timing of the Reserves Declaration is never stated to be the same time as the model would be deployed, just the army. Applying it to when a unit deploys is, at best, an assumption, and at worst, a gross misapplication of the language.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You declare Reserves instead of deploying.

Reread what you quoted, "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later." This happens when deploying the army, not the unit. Infiltrators are still part of the army, not matter that they must hold back their deploying in deployment till the end. But again, being assigned to Reserves is not deployment deploying and is only related to it by the overall time frame.

Anything preventing you from infiltrating them in coherency with an already deployed IC?

Infiltration has to be 12" away with no LoS to the enemy or 18" with LoS.

What if I deploy my IC normally then infiltrate the squad in coherency in my deployment zone?

Should work since both will be in coherency at the start of the game and both respected their deployment restrictions.

Wait, so I have to infiltrate my Scouts no matter what? No that doesn't sound right...

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
Anything preventing you from infiltrating them in coherency with an already deployed IC?

Infiltration has to be 12" away with no LoS to the enemy or 18" with LoS.

What if I deploy my IC normally then infiltrate the squad in coherency in my deployment zone?

Should work since both will be in coherency at the start of the game and both respected their deployment restrictions.

Just the IC rules and the FAQ. Infiltrators and non-Infiltrator ICs cannot be joined together in deployment, period. And being deployed in coherency with another unit during deployment is joining a unit before the game begins. There is no way of getting around that.

The only thing in actual question is if "infiltrator" only applies to deploying during deployment, or covers Reserves as well. It's the only time "Infiltrator" is used with any definable timing, but it doesn't exclude the "always an Infiltrator" option, either.

 darkcloak wrote:
Wait, so I have to infiltrate my Scouts no matter what? No that doesn't sound right...

Only if being deployed during deployment. If in Reserves, they do not have to Infiltrate (in fact, the only way they could understandably "infiltrate" from Reserves is Outflank, though, the phrasing of Infiltrate could even leave that open).

 darkcloak wrote:
Wait, so I have to infiltrate my Scouts no matter what? No that doesn't sound right...

There is no choice in the matter. Regardless of where you plan on placing them on the board, a unit with at least one model with the rule will set up after all other units (friend or foe) have been deployed.