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This topic might have been covered before, but I'll try to give my tohoughts about it. So ok, let' try to determin the "proper" cost of some ork units and upgrades. We'll judge their cost against a normal ork boy (6 pts) and a boyz nob (16 pts).
Starting with the category "boyz with X":
Burna boyz (16 pts) - boy (6) + burna (10)= Resonable price.
Tankbustas (13 pts) - boy (6) + Rokkit (5) + Meltabombs (2) + Tank Hunter= Resonable price.
Kommando (10 pts) - boy (6) + Stealth and MTC= Resonable price. Upgrades: Rokkit - 5 (proper), Big Shoota 5 (proper), Burna - 15 (overcosted, should be 10).
Stomboyz (9 pts) - boy (6) + Rokkit packs (3) = Resonable price.
Warbikers (18 pts) - boy (6) + Warbike (12) = Resonable price.
Lootas (14 pts) - boy (6) + Deffgun (8) = Resonable price.
Mek (15) - boy (6) + Mek's tools (9) = Resonable/slightly overpriced.
As we can see most "Boyz with X" are resonably priced. Only one upgrade is overpriced - burnas for kommandos.Ok, so now we have the following prices for some upgrades: Burna - 10 pts, Warbike - 12 pts, Mek's tools - 9 pts.
Moving to "Nobz with X"
Nobz (18pts) - already overcosted by 2 pts. Warbikes for them cost 27 pts, and that is more than twice as much as they should cost (12 pts). A biker nob costs 45 pts, but the proper price for one should be 28 pts.
Meganobz (40 pts) - Nob (16) + PK(25) + TL Shoota (3)= already 44. Adding a 2+ save we would get even more, so the Meganobz (even with SNP and Bulky) are undercosted. Great for us.
Flash Gitz (22 pts) - Nob (16) + BP (5) + Snazzgun (1 pt?) = undercosted. Strange thing, but they still take up a HS slot, so even the low cost doen't make up for that. Would be nice th be able to buy a 4+.
Big Mek (35 pts) - Nob (16) + Mek's tools (9) = 25. 10 pts overcosted and I don't think Independant Character is responcible for that. Proper cost should be 25 pts.
Painboy (40 pts) - Nob (16) + Dok's tools and 'Urty syringe (34?) - slightly overcosted. Dok's tools can cost 20-25 pts, but paying 9-14 pts for a Poisoned CCW is rediculous, it should cost 5 pts. So the proper cost should be 40-45 pts.
Weirdboy (45 pts) - Nob (16) + ML1 Psyker (25) = 41. Might even be cut to 40. Slightly overprices. Would be great to give him access to Orky Know-whats.
So, from this simple calculation we see that while boyz with X are resonably priced, most Nobz with X are heavily overcosted (especialy the normal Nobz).

There are so many factors not taken into account with your calculations.

You say Burnas are over costed on Kommandoes, have you taken into account you can have 2 of them in a squad as small as 5?

Considering that Space Marines get a normal flamer for 5 pts and BA get a Heavy Flamer for 10... Yeah, I do. 15 points is way to much, even 10 is to much, but since they can take 2 in a squad of 5 I think it is reaonable.

I'd say that Burnas costing 10 points is by far not too much, since you can use them as AP3 power weapons in combat if you so choose.

Marines can't turn their flamers into impromptu power weapons, after all. Orks, OTOH, can, and so yes, a Burna should cost more than a flamer.

I don't think meganobz are undercosted either. If we'really comparing anything to space marines is should be these guys. They are identical except No invul.

I don't think the painboy is overcosted. Giving FNP to 30 to 300 boyz (green tide) should be pretty expensive. I expect a nerf next edition making them have a bubble like KFFs. That would be a sad day for greenskins.

The only thing out of whack (IMHO) are nobz. Why should a meganob be less than a PK nob who has worse armor?

 JimOnMars wrote:
I don't think the painboy is overcosted. Giving FNP to 30 to 300 boyz (green tide) should be pretty expensive. I expect a nerf next edition making them have a bubble like KFFs. That would be a sad day for greenskins.

The only thing out of whack (IMHO) are nobz. Why should a meganob be less than a PK nob who has worse armor?

Yeah I don't think they're gonna do that. It's only a feel no pain. Guard tank spam armies ignore that along with so much else. They also have the sanguinary priest with the exact same role.

 JimOnMars wrote:
I don't think the painboy is overcosted. Giving FNP to 30 to 300 boyz (green tide) should be pretty expensive. I expect a nerf next edition making them have a bubble like KFFs. That would be a sad day for greenskins.

The only thing out of whack (IMHO) are nobz. Why should a meganob be less than a PK nob who has worse armor?

Compared to a Sanguinarey priest, who has a 3+, can get weapon upgrades and has higher stats while being only 10 points more the painboy is overcosted. I don't say he is bad, he is by far the most usefull HQ in the codex, but I don't think he is prices apropriatly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whiskey144 wrote:
I'd say that Burnas costing 10 points is by far not too much, since you can use them as AP3 power weapons in combat if you so choose.

Marines can't turn their flamers into impromptu power weapons, after all. Orks, OTOH, can, and so yes, a Burna should cost more than a flamer.

Ok, I see your point, but costing more than a Heavy flamer isn't right. Besides To use it as a power weapon you have to get out of reserves (unless you don't put them in reserves), survive a turn of shooting and then assault. Any luck with that lately?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mhalko1 wrote:
I don't think meganobz are undercosted either. If we'really comparing anything to space marines is should be these guys. They are identical except No invul.

I don't think that either, but the comparison to tormal nobs shows that either the normal nobs are heavily overcosted or the meganobs are "undercosted". I go with the former.

But these upgrades shouldn't have a FLAT value. Bikes cost more for Nobs, because they do more for nobs. Giving your 2 Wound model T5 and 12" move with which to make use of his superior Strength and Attacks characteristics should cost more than for a single wound S3 model. Is it worth 27? I don't know, but it's certainly worth more than 12 on a Nob.

Whiskey144 wrote:
I'd say that Burnas costing 10 points is by far not too much, since you can use them as AP3 power weapons in combat if you so choose.

Marines can't turn their flamers into impromptu power weapons, after all. Orks, OTOH, can, and so yes, a Burna should cost more than a flamer.

i cant believe you am agreeing with whiskey.

He's assuming boyz are priced appropriately and imho are overpriced by a point.
Lots bad with this analogy.
Somethings are just not taken into account.
Lots of things need fixed in the Ork codex

 docdoom77 wrote:
But these upgrades shouldn't have a FLAT value. Bikes cost more for Nobs, because they do more for nobs. Giving your 2 Wound model T5 and 12" move with which to make use of his superior Strength and Attacks characteristics should cost more than for a single wound S3 model. Is it worth 27? I don't know, but it's certainly worth more than 12 on a Nob.

The superior strength and attacks are worth little without some AP. If you take a PK a biker nob costs 70 points. A nob in a warbiker unit costs 28 (53 with a PK). Besides, despite having 2 wounds they suffer from low leadership and Mob rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
He's assuming boyz are priced appropriately and imho are overpriced by a point.
Lots bad with this analogy.
Somethings are just not taken into account.
Lots of things need fixed in the Ork codex

If you are talking about shoota boys - maybe. But normal boys cost just as much, as they should.
If I'm not taking something in account - ok, I'm listhening. What should be taken in account?

Burnas are over priced and as such I have 0 of them in my army, I have 3 meganobz equipped with kombi Skorchas and that is literally all my flame weapons (minus psyker powers)

Biker nobz are wicked over priced.

warbiker is 18pts a model
a nob biker is 45 points a model.

realistically only 1 or 2 models in a mob should ever have PKs and everything else is their to soak up wounds for them. I can almost take 3 bikers for every nob biker

10 bikers = 180pts
10 nob bikers = 450pts

go compare wound for wound at equal points value

10 bikers = 180pts with 10 wounds
4 Nob bikers = 180pts with 8 wounds.

The strength of bikers and nob bikers isnt their CC strength but yet again another delivery method for a PK and Warbikers can do it better.

I ran 10 bikers with a warboss/LS and a painboy on a bike last night and It took out 2 space marine tac squads with a psyker, special character and 2 Veteran sergeants with Power swords. then it popped a vindicator and shot down a stormtalon.

12 bikers = 36 S5AP5 TL shots at 18'
thats a lot of dakka.

nob bikers with the same characters and upgrades would be
6 bikers = 18 Shots....still a lot of dakka but basically 1/2 what the other squad can pump out.

There's a reason noone's taking burna boyz and nob bikers into competitive lists.
Flat gear price slapped on models has proven to be inaccurate pricing policy time and again. Don't think it even needs examples. Units don't act in vacuum.

Experience shows that biker nobz and burna boyz are overpriced, MANz are priced reasonably and tankbustas are underpriced for what they get.

And Wierdboyz are good for the points. Don't forget they also generate an extra WC helping them out a bit and get a force mace on a nob platform. Furthermore, they allow you to get VP from harness the warp and contribute to shooting. I take one quite often when i go double cad.

And you're probably the first to call Painbosses overpriced For merely 50 pt you get an IC nob with poisoned weapons and fnp for the Entire squad he's joined to. That's everything but overpriced. Pretty much the opposite.

Currently, i do think that mek's gear like KFF and SAG is overpriced. We see meks so rarely now. There's just no place for them when we need bosses and painbosses. Slot limitation is a problem. Yes, it can be played around but than there are options like Grotsnik and Wierdboyz. And poor meks sit on shelves due to how expensive they are for what they bring into a regular list. And they're even more expensive when you take into consideration the good stuff you Didn't take instead of mek.

 koooaei wrote:
There's a reason noone's taking burna boyz and nob bikers into competitive lists.
Flat gear price slapped on models has proven to be inaccurate pricing policy time and again. Don't think it even needs examples. Units don't act in vacuum.

Experience shows that biker nobz and burna boyz are overpriced, MANz are priced reasonably and tankbustas are underpriced for what they get.

And Wierdboyz are good for the points. Don't forget they also generate an extra WC helping them out a bit and get a force mace on a nob platform. Furthermore, they allow you to get VP from harness the warp and contribute to shooting. I take one quite often when i go double cad.

And you're probably the first to call Painbosses overpriced For merely 50 pt you get an IC nob with poisoned weapons and fnp for the Entire squad he's joined to. That's everything but overpriced. Pretty much the opposite.

Currently, i do think that mek's gear like KFF and SAG is overpriced. We see meks so rarely now. There's just no place for them when we need bosses and painbosses. Slot limitation is a problem. Yes, it can be played around but than there are options like Grotsnik and Wierdboyz. And poor meks sit on shelves due to how expensive they are for what they bring into a regular list. And they're even more expensive when you take into consideration the good stuff you Didn't take instead of mek.

Well, someone has to be the first to call a Painboy overpriced . And if it was a Painboss (like in a Dreadmob list form IA 8) he would even be better, but he is fine the way he is. The problem is that while nobs got cheaper than they were the painboy costs just as much as he was. Besides I see no reason why a nob in a unit of boyz costs more than a nob in a unit of nobs. So a painboy COULD be 4 pts cheaper.
The thing with wargear is that in the old codex MA and bikes for nobs and ICs costed just as much as a Meganob or warbiker - 40 and 25 pts respectivly. Ok, meganobs are still 40 pts, but warbikers droped to 18, so I see no reason for them to cost 27 pts. If 12 is to little, ok, let it be 18. But not 27.
As for the KFF - I don't know, I think it's fine. The SAG on the other hand could be (I don't use one so can't say anything about it).

 hordrak wrote:
Compared to a Sanguinarey priest, who has a 3+, can get weapon upgrades and has higher stats while being only 10 points more the painboy is overcosted. I don't say he is bad, he is by far the most usefull HQ in the codex, but I don't think he is prices apropriatly.

FNP is a much bigger deal on Boyz than on anything in the Blood Angels Codex though.

Ok, let's put it this way. If Painboss costed 75 pts he'd still be a must in vast majority of ork lists.

The reason behind a squad of nobz costing more than nob leaders is that you can have hidden weapons and custom gear. I can see the intention here but practice shows that a squad of nobz is a waste of points without a meatshield. Greentide illustrates it pretty well. We can see how powerful can a bunch of nobz be when they're hidden within a thick layer of regular boyz with fnp.

The problem with them is that nobz are dead killy but severely lack durability for the points. While regular boyz are very durable point-to-point, however they lack considerable killing power vs tougher stuff. That's why boyz need nobz and vise versa to function properly.

If you want to make regular nobz competing with boyz, dropping their price 2ppm won't help. They need something more. A special rule or further price reduction on gear. They have much in common with VV here. Except nobz have no good formations to be used in.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 hordrak wrote:
Compared to a Sanguinarey priest, who has a 3+, can get weapon upgrades and has higher stats while being only 10 points more the painboy is overcosted. I don't say he is bad, he is by far the most usefull HQ in the codex, but I don't think he is prices apropriatly.

FNP is a much bigger deal on Boyz than on anything in the Blood Angels Codex though.

Agreed. It's the same reason that a Kustom Force Field is much better for Orks than a Power Field Generator is for Dark Angels, despite being a more expensive, less effective version of the same thing.

I agree upgrades for Nobz are overpriced, but then generic Nobz have always struck me as overly expensive. Their value is the upgrades you can slap on, but you have to avoid going nuts - even just issuing Big Choppas and a Waaaggh! Banna pushes them above the price of veteran space marines. I disagree that you 'must' have AP weapons, though - masses of WS5 S7 attacks aren't far behind WS4 S4 AP3 attacks for killing power armour, and are much more versatile at slapping down grotesques, lychguard, light vehicles, etc, etc. One or two power klaws are still good, though.

Aside from the question of whether or not burnas are priced appropriately in the first place, I don't think it's unreasonable that burnas in a Kommando squad should be more expensive than those in a unit of Burna Boyz. Giving even just two burnas Infiltrate adds a lot to their utility.

Burnas are a power sword/flamer. Unfortunately, power swords are bad - especially on ini2 6+ armored platform and can't be used as both emidiately. Thus, you want to just shoot flamers. 15 pts for a flamer is a bit too much. If we could have burnas to be just regular flamers, they'd be much better. Something like 10-12 ppm burnaboyz in a truck toting regular flamers could find a place in my lists.

 koooaei wrote:
Burnas are a power sword/flamer. Unfortunately, power swords are bad - especially on ini2 6+ armored platform and can't be used as both emidiately. Thus, you want to just shoot flamers. 15 pts for a flamer is a bit too much. If we could have burnas to be just regular flamers, they'd be much better. Something like 10-12 ppm burnaboyz in a truck toting regular flamers could find a place in my lists.

They're definitely overpriced. I also wish I could take them in Boyz squads as an option in place of Rokkits or Big Shootas. I usually spring for a couple in my Kommandos, when I decide to bring them. Outflanking flamers are nice. Still over-priced though.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 hordrak wrote:
Compared to a Sanguinarey priest, who has a 3+, can get weapon upgrades and has higher stats while being only 10 points more the painboy is overcosted. I don't say he is bad, he is by far the most usefull HQ in the codex, but I don't think he is prices apropriatly.

FNP is a much bigger deal on Boyz than on anything in the Blood Angels Codex though.

Feel no pain on Storm shield thunder hammer termies. These guys are near unkillable. They've killed my stompa on many occasions while he kills but a few.

mhalko1 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 hordrak wrote:
Compared to a Sanguinarey priest, who has a 3+, can get weapon upgrades and has higher stats while being only 10 points more the painboy is overcosted. I don't say he is bad, he is by far the most usefull HQ in the codex, but I don't think he is prices apropriatly.

FNP is a much bigger deal on Boyz than on anything in the Blood Angels Codex though.

Feel no pain on Storm shield thunder hammer termies. These guys are near unkillable. They've killed my stompa on many occasions while he kills but a few.

Um...you know that strength D ignores FNP right? So its really just the 3+ invuln. giving them protection and if he rolls any 6's to wound from his strength D chainsaw of doom they dont' get any saves. This doesn't even include the thunderstomp removal the stompa can do.

Worst case scenario you can bog them down in Ork boyz who will eventually drown them in wounds, they can only kill so many models every turn with only 2 attacks each.