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Decurion is a meta changer, so people who copy current net lists and follow trends will have a lot of trouble until information starts becoming available about how to adapt. Basic Decurion units like Warriors, Immortals and Tomb Blades really only die when you cover them all with a S8 AP3 template, or enormous amounts of high-strength AP3 melee attacks. Most lists aren't bringing that to the table. The main reason is before Decurion, they didn't need too!

One of the best ranged anti-infantry weapons is a LRBT, because it can both drop a template on a packed group and wear down the survivors with heavy Bolters from outside their range. One of the best melee choices are Rough Riders(!) -- they will wipe out a unit of Tomb Blades with their one-use S5/AP3 attack on the Charge, and can then proceed to Tarpit or Krak anything else you desire. But players aren't using these units, because how often are you fighting an 3+/4++ FNP horde army? You might see some weird things happening as players start experimenting within their own codex. Storm Guardians with Power Swords, Lilith Hesperax, Bloodletters of Khorne... who knows what kinds of crazy experimentation you're going to see?

Counters are out there, but you're not going to see them in common use until every army figures out how to pull it all together into something of a TAC list. Obviously what works on IKs is going to completely flop with Necrons. So that's not going to be easy.

First of all, sloppy calc on the Rough Riders, my bad. I still want to pursue this though.

I don't disagree with what you guys are saying. But this discussion is the process of adaptation itself, where we weigh new ideas, discard what doesn't work, and find what does. I'm repeating your own words, Vak -- Decurion and formations give huge survivability bonuses for zero additional points. That's exactly why it's significant to the meta. Why? You simply cannot throw fire against Decurion points-for-points and get results. So really your only option is to outmanuever it or try something radically different. A lot of popular netlists rely on shooting attack output, that's what's popular to weigh effectiveness on the forums right now, and Decurion upsets that.

That's the thing. It's easy to say "5x Rough Riders kill 1.67 Tomb Blades, not gonna work". But a TL-Punisher on a Vulture, a "good" weapon, only kills 2.2! And it can't lock the unit in CC. Find some way to buff the squad, and they will eventually wear down the remainder. If not, maybe you just hold them in assault and focus on the rest of the board.

I'm not saying "Rough Riders are good". I'm just saying Decurion is going to shake things up. Same with the LRBT. How can I reduce scatter? How can I manipulate the board to get units to clump up? Is there a better platform that can give me a S8 AP3 blast and lots of Bolters so it's not useless when the template effectiveness tails off? What options do I unlock with Enfeeble? Of course I don't have the answer -- I started thinking about this today! But that's the process that's going to happen, someone will find something that works, and eventually everyone else will copy it. If nothing else, Infantry are slow and have short-range. Bikes are expensive. So I'm sure eventually someone will have the answers, even if I don't today.

Here are some more crazy ideas to wargame.

Pushing a 100pt Dreadnought into a Warrior mob will force LD8/LD9 morale checks the remainder of the game unless your opponent commits another unit to peeling it away. Everyone is afraid of Gauss but one day a smart guy will figure out a way to get past it. Blind checks, Snap Shots, or some kind of save maybe?

Wraiths can be countered with a 10-man ASM squad, 2x Jump Librarians with Force Mauls/Digital Weapons and a Jump Chaplain to make sure everyone hits. I did some quick stats and it seems promising despite it's expense. If you add Psychic Shriek you may wipe them on the charge, and then that mini-star becomes a nightmare to everything else.

Land Speeders are not a hard counter but a 75pt Typhoon Speeder can go toe-to-toe with 3x Tomb Blades at 66pts, with greater range and firepower. They Jink, you don't.

Nothing is the whole story though, you can't win with a list. These suggestion don't "work". You have to actually win on the table and that's where the human factor makes things complicated. Failing a few times will be inevitable until everyone works out how to apply their ideas. What Decurion and Wraiths will do without question is force two new items to check off in list building. "How do I deal with massed resilient units (3+/4++)", and "What is my dedicated counter-assault capability?" Nobz are not going to cut it, you need 400+pts of MegaNobz and a faster unit to pin the Wraiths so you can leverage as many Furious Charge PK attacks as possible. If Necron brings 500+ points of A+ assault into his list, maybe you need to start thinking bigger too.

People were complaining about nothing but S6/S7 spam in the meta and assault being completely pointless, right? Well, guess what... I think that's no longer the case!

 KingCorpus wrote:
If you think Necrons aren't powerful or are balanced I feel you need to re-read that codex. I haven't lost a single match with the new Necrons, even against eldar and tau.

Did the lists you played against possess:

- Dedicated counter-assault? Like, 400+ point mini-deathstars that can reliably kill Wraiths?
- A cost-effective way to deal with extremely resilient 3+/4+++ units?

I'm thinking, probably not. Surprise -- if you don't bring those two key points, Necrons are probably going to win. Having an army that upsets the meta is very powerful. Look at the lists that went to the LVO final. I just disagree in that I expect players will eventually adapt. Right now everyone is going to get stomped. That will give them the motivation to scrap their list to try out something new. Even if they can't figure it out themselves, they will eventually just copy the first people bright enough to figure out the tactical puzzle.

It's just my opinion man. But unless every alternative in every codex has been thoroughly explored, I'm still thinking it's a little early to start begging either your opponent or GW for mercy. If it's not competitive, feel free to tailor the game to your enjoyment.

Don't forget the 13x Pistols and HoW, they count. And killing 4-5x Wraiths on a charge is definitely "not terrible". It might even be useful.

For Speeders, range advantage is something you need to exploit. One thing, as the Tomb Blades get whittled down, their firepower tails off. It's not a hard counter but Necrons have no hard counter except being swept in assault! If he really wants to jump into Rapid Fire range, hit him with a fast assault unit to deny Jink and armour saves. And then direct firepower with the Typhoons on exposed targets where the HB and Krak will shine. Have you heard the term "asymmetrical warfare"? Don't go toe-to-toe with Necrons. Exploit your advantages instead of bashing your fist against a brick wall.

I think the fact we're even discussing this shows that there are unexplored options out there. How exactly are these untouched Wraiths attacking ASM that have magically taken 3x casualties? Are they just hanging out getting shot for no reason inside the 24" engagement range of the Necrons? If they bring more Wraiths, bring more ASM, and bounce your HQs from squad to squad. Why aren't you looking for solutions yourself?

Anyways, as Polyranger said, you will want a lot of Heavy Bolters messing up everything at range. Attrition won't win the game but every little bit will help.


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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
What sort of 400+ point minideaths can deal with wraiths and the rest of the army at the same time?

About 15x ID wounds will down a 5-strong Wraith squad. So it's a tall order but maybe not impossible. You also need to do it quick (1-2 rounds) so your unit isn't locked in combat the whole game. Or somehow get Hit and Run so you can refocus your unit if needed.

Snipers might have some utility too, they slip by the T5 and their low AP makes little difference due to the Invul save. I haven't looked at that yet though.

Vak, it will take victories on the table to start convincing people, as they say seeing is believing. As with most creative challenges the solutions may not be immediately apparent. But we all need to start thinking laterally. Has anyone tried the Assassinorum formation to fight Decurion? I really don't think we've exhausted all our options, just the ones we've already tried.

I actually agree with you about "having to play these units far more intelligently than the Necron player to come out on top". Decurion maybe is too strong to be used in casual games. That's similar to a lot of other units across a lot of different armies. But in competition it's your job to play more intelligently, to come out on top -- that's the essence of what determines who the best are, and that's the whole point.

So for now I'm witholding judgement. As with all things, time will tell.

Remember that discussion about Typhoons versus Tomb Blades we had a while back? It dawned on me that my mentality was all wrong. There's a lot of traps you can easily fall into when fighting Necron units, and how to avoid them isn't common knowledge yet. Decurion exacerbates that. Typhoons can kite dismounted Decurion Warriors the whole game and make their points back in about 5-6 turns. But we're still discussing frittering that potential away on something like a Tomb Blade. Tomb Blades are a Distraction Carnifex, your mistake is targeting them in the first place. A 200pt Missileside team kills about ~1 per turn. Not smart!

So the name of the game is not matching firepower, and getting frustrated when it won't work. It's about knowing how to properly cope with specific units. A Tomb Blade has 1x S4 attack in melee for 22pts. Impressive? No. Don't shoot them, just lock them up with a fast skirmisher unit that can hold them in melee. Bikes, Rough Riders, Vespids, fast Synapse units. Does it kill them? No! Does it counter them? Yes! Wraiths are strong, but their damage output is still limited. If you don't want to commit 400+ points in resources to kill them, what can lock them up at points? 30x Synapse Gargoyles? A Conscript blob? Kroot Hounds testing on LD10? There are all viable options.

Necron Infantry can be gunned down by getting enough fire through their armour save. Think S8 and AP3/4 minimum, anything else will fail. Faster, weaker units with better range will always grind down "stronger" units if they stay mobile -- this isn't complicated, it's a basic RTS tactic. Use speed to set up on their flanks. Infantry can't readjust quickly, so it minimizes return fire from the greater army. Bring a scary template to discourage grouping up for protection, so you can hit isolated models. Use vehicles against Warriors. If you absorb a single glancing hit, you lose no effectiveness. When infantry loses models, they lose firepower. If you can win the war of attrition over the course of the game -- who has ObSec, them or you? So now, you have a game plan.

Fighting Decurion is going to be like fighting every other army in the game. You are going to suck if you don't target their weaknesses. If your army can only do one thing, weight of fire, maybe it's not that Necrons are broken. Maybe you've just discovered a weakness in your list. And that's why I think Decurion is so cool -- it's going to hard counter mono-build armies that lack the flexibility to adapt. 4x Serpent Spam and 2x Wraithknights? 3x Riptide and 3x Missileside? 5x Dakka Flyrants? All very common, very shooty lists that don't really bring anything else to the table.

If every tool is your belt is a hammer, you will by necessity treat every tactical problem like a nail. You can hardly blame Decurion players for exploiting a problem -- predictability and inflexibility -- that most players are intentionally building into their own armies.

lustigjh wrote:
I think you're severely underestimating Wraiths. I had a 20 cultist blob with Dark Apostle get mulched in two turns (something like 17 died in round 1 so the Wraiths got to stay locked during my shooting phase). I even tried to get the charge but unfortunately beasts are much more likely to be getting charges than massed infantry.

Not getting the charge is going to hurt, that's another tactical problem. As for their damage potential, you want to stay away from throwing a 100pt unit into combat with them, only 3-5pt bodies. They need to kill 43x 5pt models to make their points back. Obviously getting something like Invisibility or Mental Fortitude into them would help a lot, so keep looking for solutions. They will be out there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I literally stopped reading after you talked about catching Tomb Blades in melee.

Suit yourself.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Invisibility is literally a solution for everything. That's not anything new you just pulled out of your head.
Also, you suggested tarpitting a Jetbike. That's simply ludicrous.

Ok, invisibility. What solution would his lordship prefer?

Look, I don't need to tarpit or kill a single Tomb Blade to win. I just need to control them. I halve their damage output with Gauss just by keeping them outside 12". Shooting gives me zero control, close to zero effect, zero real threat and simply incurs opportunity cost when I could have targeted a softer unit like a Warrior or Immortal. Instead, I plan to take the hit from the Tomb Blade on a unit that can afford to, control my space, and stay focused on cutting down the horde. If he comes within 18", I pounce. I don't fall for the distraction Carnifex -- I manage it and stay on track with my game plan.

BTW, it looks like an Ironclad Dreadnought w/Icon of Glory stands a decent chance with a 4++ (Forewarning). I didn't run the stats but the Dread won a few times when I diced it out. So we will eventually find ways to deal with the Wraiths too.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Now, onto a different point. I still do not understand why people keep saying that assaulting necrons is a good solution.
With the old codex I would have agreed, but new RP rules really should bring an end to the parroting of old ideas.

It's a bit of a trap, you can't push a general-purpose assault unit into a blob of Warriors. You need either enough force concentration and leadership debuffs to win convincingly, or you need to take advantage of their low damage output. 10 Warriors will kill about ~1 Scout per turn. That's not scary, but a handful of Warriors can tarpit a 240pt Wraithknight for the entire game. So be careful what you choose to assault into them.

Incidentally any kind of buff that reduces incoming damage does a lot to even the playing field. 5x Wraiths on the charge kill ~2 Tacs with a 4+ FNP from Endurance. It would take them about 6 Assault phases total to chew through an entire 4+++ Tac Squad. So it looks like layering up your own saves helps immensely.

There was exactly one AS primary out of 183 competitors, probably explains that. Out of 7 Ork primaries, one went to top 32. A lone MT primary(!) actually placed higher than every single Guard primary. IG has poor mobility and in addition Forge World was disallowed, so I'm guessing those both hurt quite a bit in terms of VPs. Meanwhile Necrons resist being tabled, have a lot of fast units and can sit on Tactical Objectives and endure fire. So it's not surprising they did well.

A Skyshield/Lynx costs 495 points. It has some utility as a support unit to kill Monoliths and other pricey mech, but it's not an answer to core Decurion formations or auxiliaries like Canoptek/Destroyer Cult.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
And how is some 5PT bodies going to make it into melee? Most have 5+ average and they'll die out in droves to their shots before ever making it into melee with them.

Wraiths don't have ranged weapons. Screening units exist to protect your firebase, not supply offence, so you should not be running into the enemy's guns. But to answer your question: Endurance, Invisibility, Forewarning, Fire Shield, Blind tests (Executioner Pask can do this), extra movement from Orders, Go to Ground in cover, hiding behind tanking units like Bullgryns, synergy with Battle Brothers, etc. I don't know man, it's a new meta. Get creative.

Lots of people are still trying to counter Necrons through high-quality firepower since it works well against other armies. Driving a 210pt 3HP tank straight into a wall of Gauss doesn't seem too bright to me, but people love Punisher Pask. Firing 10-15pt special weapons at 13pt Warriors which get a 50/50 save, or at 22pt Tomb Blades which get a 75/25 save, is not too bright either but people love Plasma/Melta Vets. People want to kill things and table opponents. Necrons however resist damage and if you can only shoot, you have nothing available to blunt Necron offence to last through 7 turns of the game.

It's like the art of war, if you don't know the strengths and weaknesses of the opponents army and your own (and apply that knowledge intelligently), don't expect to win too many battles.

Very unhelpful of me

I'll take a look at CSM. Basic principle is layer up your own saves, or force debuffs on Necron units. They can't be killed easily so you need to find ways to slow them down.

About the range -- good point. Gotta consider that

Ok, here is an Idea for CSM. Try 20x Cultists screening a Helbrute. This will only work if you take "4th Quadrant Legacy", it's going to grant Fearless within 12" to all your cultists. It also has the bonus of giving you a 4++ when your Helbrute has 1HP.

With 2x melee weapons giving your Helbrute 3x S10 attacks, you will ID Wraiths every time you get through the 3++. That's a 210pt Combo so you will stand a decent chance at points depending on how things play out on the table.

BTW, any Slaneesh Psyker can get Blind. Warp Talons have it too upon Deep Strike, so you could theoretically counter-drop them onto units like Destroyers to defend your own lines. Scatter manipulation would help. Typhus looks like he can potentially defeat coil Wraiths at cost, Force weapons are what you want to go for and he even has the Initiative to strike first.

They're not "good units" -- I'm just trying to point out Necrons encourage some very unorthodox thinking to counter them.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Typhus is unwieldy.

He's also I5, I missed that too. But it did show me throwing out a lot of WS5 Instant Death attacks at I6 will cut down a ton of incoming damage, which is desirable. It actually seems a lot more effective than just absorbing the hit with blobs.

Maybe you could pump Ahriman's Force Weapon to I8 with Warp Speed. Or, alternatively get a DP up to S8 and double out Wraiths with a toughness debuff. Given lower initiative and Instant Death, they will die more or less like TH/SS Terminators.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Melee Helbrute is terrible, and tends to get shredder by a wraith swarm let alone the REST of the entire army behind it, the cultists won't even make it still.

Seems more effective than a Dark Apostle, though.

Shooting down ideas is fine, but usually it's to work towards more effective ones. Feel free to contribute your own.

You can put that Fearless bubble onto any vehicle if you want to stick with Cultists, put it on a Sicaran if it's more your style.

I think Cultists are a dicey solution alone, they have no incoming damage mitigation. Not committing a Dark Apostle will help, but you still need to lower the Wraiths down to 4-5 kills per phase. AM can manage this by rerolling failed saves but I'm not sure what CSM can bring to the table.

I'll keep thinking about it, the problem is not suggesting something too complex to be practical.

Fielding an overpowering army in a casual setting is poor social etiquette, but as stated it's a context thing. If a 'cocky ignorant TFG' is unhappy to lose to Decurion with his own carefully constructed power list, how valid is the complaint?

Returning to the CSM vs. Wraith puzzle, I checked out that Helcult dataslate and found out about the Power Scourge. This thing is decent at levelling the playing field, 1/3 of the time Wraiths will hit on 5's and the Helbrute now hits on 3's. At equal points (3x Wraiths, 1x Helbrute) it looks like it's 50/50 who wins.

So maybe there is some potential there. At the very least, it's going to hold up much better than a Dark Apostle, and you can free up an HQ slot for another choice.

The negative side of GW releasing so many unique formations and detachments is it's going to become very difficult to know how everything functions. There's going to be a lot of playing 'gotcha' with game-changing special rules and Decurion is a perfect example.

It smacks a little of a business strategy rather than game design, in where you want the rules to be clear and transparent for both players. Tying a million special rules and bonuses to obscure formations is going to make 40k even more Byzantine and confused than it already is.

However it ensures you don't end up with unpopular units that aren't taken, as they become a mandatory choice for the better ones to function well. This is probably why GW is getting away from the CAD, apparently Decurion-style armies are the trend for the future.

The rules writers are definitely not the ones behind the switch to pushing Formations, it is transparently executive-level manipulation meant to move web bundles. If you don't make the bonuses appealing enough, they're not going to sell.

If you wonder why things seems skitzo in large entities like business and bureaucracies, it's usually a clash of ideas between different people. If a GW employee has to choose between putting food on the table or attempting to curtail runaway exec ideas, it's pretty obvious what will win out.

LordBlades wrote:
Somehow I doubt it. The idea behind formations is pretty cool and fluffy (and at the basic level I think it's a welcome departure frim CAD) it's just that the execution at the usual level of clueless rules-writing ine can expect from GW.

Check out GW's web store and recent releases. There are some very clear trends: look at the new Khorne, there are 5x bundles all of which are advertised "allows you to field X formation". Reclamation Legion and Judicator are sold as bundles. The exception is the mini-armies like Skitarii and Harlequins that are coming out.

You don't have to take my word for it though.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-future-will-revolve-around-decurion.html

Because streamlined design is usually good. I think springing a bunch of surprise rules and wonky bonuses on unsuspecting players is really tasteless design.

You want rules and tactics to be relatively transparent for all players. The mantra is 'easy to learn, hard to master'. If you say "the Necron army is defined by a 4+ RP", we say "ok". It's simple to understand.

When you say, "taking X combination of units defined by this FOC, which also requires an auxiliary and grants Y bonuses", players mostly ask "um, why?" They feel like something is wrong because they're not being offered a clear ruleset. It also skews, what is the baseline -- Decurion or CAD?

Imagine 1 year from now, when we have 6-7 codex updates which all have their own sneaky special bonuses nobody can keep track of. It's not a power thing. It's a clarity thing.

 krodarklorr wrote:
I dunno, I feel all of the Necron formations make sense fluff wise, and the benefits give you a reason to bring more than just Wraiths or a Triarch Stalker. Now, if the formations literally didn't make any sense, I'd have a problem with it, yes.

That's the strategy -- when you're buying the formation, you're buying the bonus. This means GW gets to reduce the risk of certain kits not moving. So it's smart in that way.

The sales hook is that it's great for the player who field the formation. It feels like added value at a minor cost. Meanwhile it pisses off others (see Vak's POV) who feel like they're up against an unfair and unmerited bonus.

I don't know, maybe there's some value in formations. But it seems like it's putting sales psychology ahead of game design, which is a leadership decision at GW. And for a company that claims their main pitch is their models, not their rules, it makes me a little skeptical of how much they've thought out the secondary consequences.