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So with the advent of three new Bloodthirsters, there becomes a bit of an issue. What happens to the old bloodthirster in codex: chaos daemons?

It seems like it has been replaced by the Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury; however this has not been explicitly stated, as GW just released a new dataslate that is identical in every way to the old model which was simply named, "bloodthirster". You can't buy the old model any longer. There is only the new model, which builds one of three bloodthirster models, each with their own special suffix.

It seems pretty clear that you can field any of the three thirsters in a chaos daemons army since they have the daemons faction symbol on their dataslates in the white dwarf. However, what happens when you try to summon a "bloodthirster"? The BRB says to just summon a bloodthirster, so it would seem the most conservative approach would be to say that you have to summon the one printed in codex: chaos daemons, which is the only one that has a unit entry for "bloodthirster". However, I could also make the case that the old bloodthirster has been superseded by both new rules and a new model in this new release, so there is no longer any bloodthirster that is not a bloodthirster of unfettered fury, which would seem to indicate that you could summon any of the three thirsters. What do you guys think? I'm certainly not holding my breath for GW to clarify anything.

The rules for Bloodthirsters in Codex: Khorne Daemonkin has no effect on the rules for Bloodthirsters in Codex: Chaos Daemons. You use the rules from the codex that you are using.

I'm talking about the dataslates presented in the white dwarf, which are for a Chaos Daemons army. Check the faction symbol, or the description of the white dwarf if you'd like:

"Exclusive dataslates allowing you to use the three mighty new Bloodthirsters in your Chaos Daemons army"

Sounds like it just adds 3 units. Nothing stops the use of the current bloodthirster.

Yeah it says bloodthirster so you get the C:CD bloodthirster, you can use any of the 3 models or the old models to represent this guy. His rules are identical to the BT of Unfettered Fury so it make sense to use that version of the model. Otherwise they need a FAQ to allow access to the other types.

I wouldn't trust the symbols by themselves. Is there anything in writing in the White Dwarf to say that its an update for Codex Chaos Daemons? And what does the Faction symbol for Codex Khorne Daemonkin look like?

He quoted above WD is dataslates for Chaos Daemons. You should absolutely trust the Faction symbol it is an important part of a data sheet. As for what the Daemonkin symbol looks like, well we don't know. However we do know what the Chaos Daemon one looks like and it is completely clear that these datasheets contain it.

 Ghaz wrote:
what does the Faction symbol for Codex Khorne Daemonkin look like?

Well, the mark of Khorne is on both the Datacards and the special edition codex...

And also even if I hadn't seen those: Khorne.

If the only thing in the White Dwarf denoting that its an update for Chaos Daemons is the symbol, then its the equivalent of the old children's puzzle where you had to find the differences between two similar pictures. It looks more like GW didn't get the right symbol on the datasheets previewing Codex Khorne Daemonkin than it is an update to Codex Chaos Daemons that you have to look at the pictures to figure out what their intentions are.

Opening paragraph of that rules section:

"Own a Chaos Daemons Army? Wish you could add the new Bloodthirsters to your Daemonic Legion? Well now you can, because Khorne's servants in the design studio have created three exclusive datasheets for them. Here are our thoughts on using them in battle."

 Ghaz wrote:
If the only thing in the White Dwarf denoting that its an update for Chaos Daemons is the symbol, then its the equivalent of the old children's puzzle where you had to find the differences between two similar pictures. It looks more like GW didn't get the right symbol on the datasheets previewing Codex Khorne Daemonkin than it is an update to Codex Chaos Daemons that you have to look at the pictures to figure out what their intentions are.

Are you being intentionally stupid or just arguing for the sake of it? The symbol is Chaos Daemons, white Dwarf says the datasheets are for Chaos Daemons, the description of White Dwarf says they are for Chaos Daemons. Why on earth would you think it is more likely that they "didn't get the right symbol on the datasheets previewing Codex Khorne Daemonkin"? Seriously?

changemod wrote:
Opening paragraph of that rules section:

"Own a Chaos Daemons Army? Wish you could add the new Bloodthirsters to your Daemonic Legion? Well now you can, because Khorne's servants in the design studio have created three exclusive datasheets for them. Here are our thoughts on using them in battle."

Thank you. That is the unambiguous wording I was missing. With GW's track record, one can't be too sure of their intentions sometimes.

In this case you can - it's explicit.

I completely understand Ghaz's apprehension about GW and their wording. In this case, though, it doesn't matter what the faction symbol for Daemonkin is, as it can't be identical to Daemons (since it contains CSM units and is its own army in any case)

"All units belong to one of the many factions that are fighting in the 41st millennium. This will often be represented on the units Army List Entry with a symbol, the key for which can be found [on the page] to the right." (Rulebook, Organising a Battle, Choosing Your Army, Detachments, Factions)

The symbols on the datasheets match the Chaos Daemons faction symbol in the rulebook, so there is no doubt that the datasheets are for the Chaos Daemons faction.

As a better question - is anyone really going to fault you...

"Hey you play chaos demons - but chaos demons khorne so you cannot use that model...."

0_0

But in relation to the question - I think in reference to either summoning, or purchasing the blood thirster, it is in reference to demons. You can purchase the one from the codex, or you can purchase the one from the white dwarf for your game.

fidel wrote:
As a better question - is anyone really going to fault you...

"Hey you play chaos demons - but chaos demons khorne so you cannot use that model...."

0_0

But in relation to the question - I think in reference to either summoning, or purchasing the blood thirster, it is in reference to demons. You can purchase the one from the codex, or you can purchase the one from the white dwarf for your game.

.....but there are 3 different Bloodthirsters in the white dwarf, hence the point of this thread. Can any of the three variants be summoned through malefic Daemonology?

None of them can currently only the C:CD one can be. Though as his rules are identical to the Unfettered Fury one I doubt anyone will complain if you use that.

Lets not forget how 7th edition works. Battleforged armies are only restricted to what units you bring by what the restrictions are for your detachments. Lets take a CAD for example. This detachments lets you field units from any source material ( codex, dataslate, etc ) as long as all the units have the same faction. A units faction is determined by its datasheet. Only when the datasheet lacks a faction do we assume the faction to be that of the name of the codex it was printed in.

Right now there are zero multi-faction detachments but Deamonkin might be the 1st codex to include detachments with a restriction like (All units in this detachment must have either the Chaos Space Marines or Chaos Daemons faction.) All we know right now is the 3 datasheets they gave us in the white dwarf have the Chaos Daemons faction, and that makes them legal choices for some detachments where other units also have the same faction.

 luke1705 wrote:

.....but there are 3 different Bloodthirsters in the white dwarf, hence the point of this thread. Can any of the three variants be summoned through malefic Daemonology?

This is a complicated debate. One argument will be that a bloodthirstier of any ilk is a still a bloodthirstier, not unlike the dreadnought/stormraven relationship. Another will be that the spell is specific to the unit's name. Only the datasheet printed in C:CD has a unit with that name and these are different units that cannot be summoned.

I'm included to saw the latter is RAW, as the spells tell us the rules for the units can be located in the chaos daemons codex, and these rules cannot, but thats not how my group is going to play it

Eloquent summary of the issue at hand. Now to hold my breath for the impending FAQ. Oh wait.....

Which white dwarf where these included in?

It seems quite simple to me.

Conjured daemons must be taken from codex: chaos daemons. The three new ones are not in codex chaos daemons.

Therefore the three new ones cannot be summoned

Although, iirc, the BT of unfettered fury is exactly the same as the stock BT in the codex

 Aijec wrote:
Which white dwarf where these included in?

WD#60

 DJGietzen wrote:
Right now there are zero multi-faction detachments but Deamonkin might be the 1st codex to include detachments with a restriction like (All units in this detachment must have either the Chaos Space Marines or Chaos Daemons faction.)

I believe either the Skitarii or the Adeptus Mechanicus do actually have a multi-faction formation listed in their book. It has a Formation from the Skitarii, Adeptus Mechanicus, and Imperial Knights.

Not that is overly pertinent to the specific discussion, but a good reminder, nonetheless.


The BRB specifies the unit, "Bloodthirster" from Codex: Chaos Daemons for the Malefic Power. The blood summoning available in Daemonkin does allow for either of the three, though, if I remember correctly.

Nah you get Unfettered Fury with Blood tithe only. Which is identical to the standard BT in the Daemon Codex...

 luke1705 wrote:
I'm talking about the dataslates presented in the white dwarf, which are for a Chaos Daemons army. Check the faction symbol, or the description of the white dwarf if you'd like:

"Exclusive dataslates allowing you to use the three mighty new Bloodthirsters in your Chaos Daemons army"

This is totally separate than what you summon. RAI coincides with RAW here, what is the confusion?

Just summon your BT and be happy.

Are there differences between the basic BT and the new 250 point named one anyways?