Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Obviously, kill points can be extremely rough for MSU (multiple small units) armies and first blood can be an easy point. However, in maelstrom missions, I feel like they have a pretty massive advantage.

Is there a good strategy or type of army that can fight against MSU without bringing MSU itself? How would you play against 20 separate units of space marines, for example?

Things like cleansing flame are good, since they hit all units in range. Big squads can also attempt multicharges. They can also suffer from local disadvantage unless they are mobile. Finally, specialist squads are much easier to remove, and reserves are more vulnerable to interceptor fire.

Novas, Flamers hitting multiple units, Splitfire

You don't even need to destroy a unit, you could reduce it to 1-2 models and move on to the next unit and reduce the damage capabilities of more units

MSU can't reliably tarpit.
It doesn't benefit from buffs that much.
It's strong at gaining a fast VP advantage early on but than it starts loosing more than taking back. If you have ability to deny them objectives early on, MSU will have hard time. Hordes can do it pretty effectively.

What about a hypothetical detachment that causes a Skull Cannon and a pack of Bloodletters to appear for every five points under a system whereby a point is scored for every unit destroyed on either side and every turn passed, and a second lesser reward may be taken from the table when a reward is chosen?

I imagine that might discourage combat squadding.

I think powerful CC armies like Daemons and Bugs do a good job against MSU marines. Think about a Daemons FA section filled out with max Khornedogs and Screamers. They'll just multi-assault their way through the whole marine army. Consolidate, rinse and repeat until tabling. CSM can do it too with double sorcerers running with spawn + Helldrake. Then ally in some Daemons lol

IG/AM and pie plates, and more pie plates... the pie plate fixes it all

Myliel wrote:
IG/AM and pie plates, and more pie plates... the pie plate fixes it all

To an extent. I was actually really surprised how little damage a wyvern barrage does to smaller units of space marines after watching them completely wipe out larger squads. Blasts do their damage by causing lots of hits, right? If there aren't many models in a unit, the amount of damage you can do it limited. The only advantage a blast will have on MSU armies is if you manage to hit multiple units with the same barrage. That could happen, but it might not. It really comes down to deployment. Pie plates can work, but that doesn't mean they will work.

Remember, attrition doesn't really hurt MSU armies. You might feel like you're degrading their damage significantly by, say, killing half the unit. But they were probably more concerned with scoring objectives, and you don't degrade their ability to do that until everyone in the unit is dead. That's why hordes, multicharges and sweeping advances are so helpful in mopping up MSU.

Belac Ynnead wrote:

Myliel wrote:
IG/AM and pie plates, and more pie plates... the pie plate fixes it all

To an extent. I was actually really surprised how little damage a wyvern barrage does to smaller units of space marines after watching them completely wipe out larger squads. Blasts do their damage by causing lots of hits, right? If there aren't many models in a unit, the amount of damage you can do it limited. The only advantage a blast will have on MSU armies is if you manage to hit multiple units with the same barrage. That could happen, but it might not. It really comes down to deployment. Pie plates can work, but that doesn't mean they will work.

Remember, attrition doesn't really hurt MSU armies. You might feel like you're degrading their damage significantly by, say, killing half the unit. But they were probably more concerned with scoring objectives, and you don't degrade their ability to do that until everyone in the unit is dead. That's why hordes, multicharges and sweeping advances are so helpful in mopping up MSU.

Since the enemy will keep the 2" cohesion, it doesn't really matter if there are 20 models set 2" apart, or only a few. You'll hit like 3 models with a single blast, and that's it. You can hit the same 3 guys multiple times with the same effect as hitting 3 different ones, so I don't see what difference does it make.

Zsolt wrote:


Since the enemy will keep the 2" cohesion, it doesn't really matter if there are 20 models set 2" apart, or only a few. You'll hit like 3 models with a single blast, and that's it. You can hit the same 3 guys multiple times with the same effect as hitting 3 different ones, so I don't see what difference does it make.

It does matter. Smaller squads can easilly fit where they want to, forming a line - best anti-blast formation. While larger squads will often have to create rows. Rows of infantry - even spread out - take more casualties. Especially against multiple barrage. And even single shots do more damage as they can scatter in any direction and still hit stuff.

Yeah, 2'' coherency on a 5-man or even a 10-man squad isn't that hard to achieve, good luck getting it on a 30-man squad squeezed inbetween terrain or whatever, though. Lack of board space forces blobs to bunch up.

Wanting to play efficiently and not have to measure two inches a couple dozen times is what causes the bunching. *insert meme of work player throwing 30 boys in a pike on the bridge with the text "they're here..ish"

I mean you still inflict more casualties with blast weapons against larger squads even if they're spread out 2". Generally.