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My next opponent is bringing Tau, with 3x Firewarriors, a squad of Pathfinders, 2 Devilfishes, a Riptide with Ion, Vespids, Piranhas, Hammerhead, and Skyray. He is also bringing Aunshi and 3 Crisis Suits with Fusion Blasters.

I can post both lists if wanted, but I'm bringing two Soul Grinders, a Daemon Prince, a Skull Cannon, and lots of Flesh Hounds. Should my plan be just to stick to objectives and assault what I can, or is there something I should target first?

Riptides are huge, that means they have huge guts, rip and tear.

Seriously though, don't build to counter his list. His seems like it is a fake out, unless for some reason he might really like aun'shi for some reason.

Play for objectives, stay out of his los and range.

Actually, good luck, your army loses rock paper scissors to them.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
Riptides are huge, that means they have huge guts, rip and tear.

Seriously though, don't build to counter his list. His seems like it is a fake out, unless for some reason he might really like aun'shi for some reason.

Play for objectives, stay out of his los and range.

Actually, good luck, your army loses rock paper scissors to them.

Hah, thanks I guess I always like playing the Underdog. I'm not building to counter his list, it's a local tourney where we made lists with blind opponents, he's just my next round. I'm just trying to think of general strategies of how I can fight them effectively.

Before I read you post (i.e. just read the title), I was thinking "Lots of Fleshhounds". Then I read you post and I was pleased.

If you stick on the objectives, you may get tabled. If you assault as quickly as possible, you may table him.

You want to put as many units as close to his deployment zone T1 as possible. Make sure you get as many T2 charges. Fire Warriors have defensive grenades, plus all that overwatch, so you wont get any advantages but only charging 1 unit at a time. However you will get Lots of benefit by charging 2-3 units at a time.

Target his Pathfinders with your Skullcannon first. If that doesn't kill them, torch them with your baleflamers.

I don't know how you have your Soulgrinders kitted, but if they are not Slaanesh with Baleflamers, don't bother. If they are sitting back trying to Phlegm, they are not as big a threat to Tau and can be ignored.

I want to stress this: you need EVERY one of your units to move as fast as they can toward the Tau battle line Turn 1. If you try to piece meal some units forward, they WILL get picked off. By rushing the Tau, they will have to make hard decisions and wont be able to kill all of the threats in charge range.
---------------------------------------------
As for the Rock-Paper-Scissors effect. when both the Daemon & Tau recent books came out, I primarily played against them. most of my Daemon tactics are anti-Tau tactics. After a few games, I figures out that Tau are NOT a hard counter to Daemons, if you know how to play them.

 Galef wrote:
Before I read you post (i.e. just read the title), I was thinking "Lots of Fleshhounds". Then I read you post and I was pleased.

If you stick on the objectives, you may get tabled. If you assault as quickly as possible, you may table him.

You want to put as many units as close to his deployment zone T1 as possible. Make sure you get as many T2 charges. Fire Warriors have defensive grenades, plus all that overwatch, so you wont get any advantages but only charging 1 unit at a time. However you will get Lots of benefit by charging 2-3 units at a time.

Target his Pathfinders with your Skullcannon first. If that doesn't kill them, torch them with your baleflamers.

I don't know how you have your Soulgrinders kitted, but if they are not Slaanesh with Baleflamers, don't bother. If they are sitting back trying to Phlegm, they are not as big a threat to Tau and can be ignored.

I want to stress this: you need EVERY one of your units to move as fast as they can toward the Tau battle line Turn 1. If you try to piece meal some units forward, they WILL get picked off. By rushing the Tau, they will have to make hard decisions and wont be able to kill all of the threats in charge range.
---------------------------------------------
As for the Rock-Paper-Scissors effect. when both the Daemon & Tau recent books came out, I primarily played against them. most of my Daemon tactics are anti-Tau tactics. After a few games, I figures out that Tau are NOT a hard counter to Daemons, if you know how to play them.

Awesome! Thank you, this is what I was looking for. My plan so far, if he goes first and I don't, is hide out of LoS as much as I can. I was considering DS one of my SGs, as I have a Nurgle with Phlegm and a Slaanesh with Bale Flamers like you described, but I think charging my Slaanesh with all my Hounds is better.

I also have a squad of Flamers of Tzeentch. Do you think i should just run them behind the Slaanesh, then T2 pop out, flame as many Tau as I can, and assault? If I can, I'm definitely going to let my Flamers or my Slaanesh Grinder eat the Overwatch first, before I let my dogs rip into them.

Definetly a good idea to make him overwatch the Grinder to save some hounds.

I would be extremely hesitant about using reserves. The more you have on the board, the better. I would keep the Nurgle grinder moving forward, but shooting as it can ID the Crisis suits

Right on. I'm thinking about sniping his Devilfishes with the Nurgle Grinder and the Skull Cannon, as the Phlegm is Ordnance and the Cannon can Ignore Cover. Thoughts?

It is definetly worth it in later turns, but I think sniping his Pathfinders with the Skullcannon would get you First Blood quicker. That and you don't want him using those marker lights.

 Galef wrote:
It is definetly worth it in later turns, but I think sniping his Pathfinders with the Skullcannon would get you First Blood quicker. That and you don't want him using those marker lights.

Oh definitely. I'm hoping the Baleful Torrents will be a quick first blood. I know it's not a big issue for other armies, but with Daemons, I feel like going first is much more significant.

What flavor of Prince are you bringing? I prefer Nurgle, but its benefits are somewhat mitigated by Marker Lights. Speaking of, it seems that your tau opponent has relatively few, and they should be a priority for you. The only obvious thing in his list with markers is the Skyray, so you should try to get to that with the hounds pronto. If the hound squad is big enough, try to multi assault the Skyray and another unit. Put as many hounds into the Skyray as possible to make sure it is dead and then sweep the other unit(s) through combat resolution. Once that's dead, the Prince (if Nurgle) can jink for a 2+ cover save to his rotted heart's content while getting into combat. You'll probably want to scout/move the hounds close enough to him on turn 1 that he's forced to shoot at them, but not close enough that they are in easy rapid fire range of all of his fire warriors (ie just outside of 15" from his lines). I would largely ignore the Riptide. Yes, it can double out the Hounds, but as long as you maintain good spacing it's damage output will be somewhat negligible against Daemons. Only kill it when/if it's convenient. Hope that helps.

My go to strategy with tau was to deep strike a few small units of PB right into their faces ASAP, use instruments and icons if needed. Meanwhile run slaanesh grinders up the field. Turn 2 you should be melting any fire warriors with your torrent. Plus there is nothing in that book that will stand up to a soul grinder in CC. Screamers and flesh hounds are awesome awesome to get in their face quick.

Actually, good luck, your army loses rock paper scissors to them.

I disagree. Daemons tend to win more often than not vs tau in my experience.

Without psykers to defend themselves, the psychic phase is a very one sided affair.

Summoning and invisibility can both be game changers.

Dogs and grinders are a good match up.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
What flavor of Prince are you bringing? I prefer Nurgle, but its benefits are somewhat mitigated by Marker Lights. Speaking of, it seems that your tau opponent has relatively few, and they should be a priority for you. The only obvious thing in his list with markers is the Skyray, so you should try to get to that with the hounds pronto. If the hound squad is big enough, try to multi assault the Skyray and another unit. Put as many hounds into the Skyray as possible to make sure it is dead and then sweep the other unit(s) through combat resolution. Once that's dead, the Prince (if Nurgle) can jink for a 2+ cover save to his rotted heart's content while getting into combat. You'll probably want to scout/move the hounds close enough to him on turn 1 that he's forced to shoot at them, but not close enough that they are in easy rapid fire range of all of his fire warriors (ie just outside of 15" from his lines). I would largely ignore the Riptide. Yes, it can double out the Hounds, but as long as you maintain good spacing it's damage output will be somewhat negligible against Daemons. Only kill it when/if it's convenient. Hope that helps.

I'll be rolling a Tzeentch DP with armor, ML3 and Biomancy, and a Grimoire for the Hounds. They're a 20 hound squad with the Herald, so multi assault shouldn't be a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Actually, good luck, your army loses rock paper scissors to them.

I disagree. Daemons tend to win more often than not vs tau in my experience.

Without psykers to defend themselves, the psychic phase is a very one sided affair.

Summoning and invisibility can both be game changers.

Dogs and grinders are a good match up.

Because it's so expensive, I've found Summoning to be rather ineffectual lately. What is a good choice for my Warp Charge 1 Pink Horrors? Should I stick with Summoning and try and throw it off when I can, or is there something better?

I'd still roll on summoning with them.

The first few game turns the power dice are going to be best used on invisibility, iron arm, or cursed earth + grimoire, to ensure that your main units can reach the opponent intact.

The pink horrors don't have to do anything. Just by sitting on an obective and providing warp charges they are fulfilling their purpose. If they get to summon something as well, then great.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I'd still roll on summoning with them.

The first few game turns the power dice are going to be best used on invisibility, iron arm, or cursed earth + grimoire, to ensure that your main units can reach the opponent intact.

The pink horrors don't have to do anything. Just by sitting on an obective and providing warp charges they are fulfilling their purpose. If they get to summon something as well, then great.

Yeah that makes sense. So my go to is Daemonettes, but do you have a better recommendation for summoning?

From the primaris power, daemonettes and pink horrors are the most commonly seen. Most of the time it;s daemonettes, as they are the most offensive pick.

Personally I'd get Be'lakor in your list instead of the prince. His guaranteed invis is invaluable vs gunlines.

Well I'm playing with a locked list, unfortunately, but Be'lakor is definitely on my mind as far as increasing my Daemons.

Tau will buckle under pressure. Go at them fast and hard and they won't be able to keep up. There's a good chance they'll be ignoring your cover saves anyway so I would only really worry about them first turn, after that just charge headlong and take advantage of you invulns.

Tau excel at focusing out 1 unit at a time and picking armies apart. Don't give them that chance.

Like everyone else has been saying, make those markerlights dead. They're a huge force multiplier.

If I were up against that list my priorities would be:
1. Pathfinders
2. Fw's and aunshi (for obsec, warlord, and the extra ethereal point.)
3. Suits
4. Vespids and piranhas (get rid of his fast units so you don't have to worry about last minute objective grabs)
What you want from there. The hammerhead will be scary for your grinders but with cover (and the pathfinders dead) and invuln they should be ok

 TNT925 wrote:
Tau will buckle under pressure. Go at them fast and hard and they won't be able to keep up. There's a good chance they'll be ignoring your cover saves anyway so I would only really worry about them first turn, after that just charge headlong and take advantage of you invulns.

Tau excel at focusing out 1 unit at a time and picking armies apart. Don't give them that chance.

Like everyone else has been saying, make those markerlights dead. They're a huge force multiplier.

If I were up against that list my priorities would be:
1. Pathfinders
2. Fw's and aunshi (for obsec, warlord, and the extra ethereal point.)
3. Suits
4. Vespids and piranhas (get rid of his fast units so you don't have to worry about last minute objective grabs)
What you want from there. The hammerhead will be scary for your grinders but with cover (and the pathfinders dead) and invuln they should be ok

Awesome, that is great. Yeah, that's the general advice I've seen, I'm just anxious because he's taking some stuff I've never seen before. In regards to his suits, I did have an idea. If he deepstrikes behind my Nurgle Grinder, do you think putting my PBs in a line directly behind him would give him a cover save bonus to Shrouded?

 jreilly89 wrote:

 TNT925 wrote:
Tau will buckle under pressure. Go at them fast and hard and they won't be able to keep up. There's a good chance they'll be ignoring your cover saves anyway so I would only really worry about them first turn, after that just charge headlong and take advantage of you invulns.

Tau excel at focusing out 1 unit at a time and picking armies apart. Don't give them that chance.

Like everyone else has been saying, make those markerlights dead. They're a huge force multiplier.

If I were up against that list my priorities would be:
1. Pathfinders
2. Fw's and aunshi (for obsec, warlord, and the extra ethereal point.)
3. Suits
4. Vespids and piranhas (get rid of his fast units so you don't have to worry about last minute objective grabs)
What you want from there. The hammerhead will be scary for your grinders but with cover (and the pathfinders dead) and invuln they should be ok

Awesome, that is great. Yeah, that's the general advice I've seen, I'm just anxious because he's taking some stuff I've never seen before. In regards to his suits, I did have an idea. If he deepstrikes behind my Nurgle Grinder, do you think putting my PBs in a line directly behind him would give him a cover save bonus to Shrouded?

Hmmm.... Probably not. I don't have any PBs so I couldn't say for sure, but since the good majority of the grinders model is elevated due to the legs I don't think you'd be able to get a bump to your save (what with true LOS on vehicles).

At the same time though having something behind the grinders might not be a bad idea as they would make it tougher for the suits to get in close for the melta range.

 jreilly89 wrote:
If he deepstrikes behind my Nurgle Grinder, do you think putting my PBs in a line directly behind him would give him a cover save bonus to Shrouded?

They will probably not give cover, but if you position them correctly, you may prevent him from getting into range (assuming they're equipped with meltas).

This can be accomplished by spacing out the PBs so that there is not enough space between them and the Grinder for him to DS into, yet place them far enough out that he can't get within 12" of the Grinder without violating the 1" rule from your PBs

 Galef wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
If he deepstrikes behind my Nurgle Grinder, do you think putting my PBs in a line directly behind him would give him a cover save bonus to Shrouded?

They will probably not give cover, but if you position them correctly, you may prevent him from getting into range (assuming they're equipped with meltas).

This can be accomplished by spacing out the PBs so that there is not enough space between them and the Grinder for him to DS into, yet place them far enough out that he can't get within 12" of the Grinder without violating the 1" rule from your PBs

That is actually something I had not considered. Perhaps do like a parabola formation, like below? He'll be DSing them in a squad of 3 most likely, so unless he starts them on the board. I don't think he'd be able to fit in that pocket



--------------SG--------------
X---------Objective--------X
-X---------------------------X-
---X------------------------X--
-----X------------------X------
-----------X-----X-------------

That diagram is perfect. But remember that you dont need to deploy them that way and to keep moving them forward.

I would deploy the PBs with 1" behind/around the Grinder, then in your first turn, move the Grinder forward and set-up the PBs in the above "formation"

--------------SG--------------
X---------Objective--------X
-X---------------------------X-
---X-----------X------------X--
-----X------------------X------
-----------X-----X-------------

I would also place 1 model in the middle like so, to prevent any doubt that he cannot DS behind the Grinder (unless you want to trick him into mishapping )

 Galef wrote:
That diagram is perfect. But remember that you dont need to deploy them that way and to keep moving them forward.

I would deploy the PBs with 1" behind/around the Grinder, then in your first turn, move the Grinder forward and set-up the PBs in the above "formation"

--------------SG--------------
X---------Objective--------X
-X---------------------------X-
---X-----------X------------X--
-----X------------------X------
-----------X-----X-------------

I would also place 1 model in the middle like so, to prevent any doubt that he cannot DS behind the Grinder (unless you want to trick him into mishapping )

He's a decent player, so I don't know if I could trick him into it, but if he risks it, that's his fault

Just FYI, this tactic is also pretty fool-proof vs Drop Pod lists (though in vs those, you do need to deploy like that)

Remember: deploying around the grinder might give it better cover - but tau can simply remove any cover save with 2 markerlight hits.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Remember: deploying around the grinder might give it better cover - but tau can simply remove any cover save with 2 markerlight hits.

True, at least he'll still have his Daemon save. I'm just trying to keep him off my back as much as possible. Grinders are AV 13/13/11, and that Melta would really hurt AV 11.

 Galef wrote:
Before I read you post (i.e. just read the title), I was thinking "Lots of Fleshhounds". Then I read you post and I was pleased.

If you stick on the objectives, you may get tabled. If you assault as quickly as possible, you may table him.

You want to put as many units as close to his deployment zone T1 as possible. Make sure you get as many T2 charges. Fire Warriors have defensive grenades, plus all that overwatch, so you wont get any advantages but only charging 1 unit at a time. However you will get Lots of benefit by charging 2-3 units at a time.

Target his Pathfinders with your Skullcannon first. If that doesn't kill them, torch them with your baleflamers.

I don't know how you have your Soulgrinders kitted, but if they are not Slaanesh with Baleflamers, don't bother. If they are sitting back trying to Phlegm, they are not as big a threat to Tau and can be ignored.

I want to stress this: you need EVERY one of your units to move as fast as they can toward the Tau battle line Turn 1. If you try to piece meal some units forward, they WILL get picked off. By rushing the Tau, they will have to make hard decisions and wont be able to kill all of the threats in charge range.
---------------------------------------------
As for the Rock-Paper-Scissors effect. when both the Daemon & Tau recent books came out, I primarily played against them. most of my Daemon tactics are anti-Tau tactics. After a few games, I figures out that Tau are NOT a hard counter to Daemons, if you know how to play them.

I love your last sentence. So many people locally think Tau are a hard counter to Daemons. (I'm the Tau player ) But when I play against a Daemons player that knows their army... man... it's TOUGH.

I play a pretty damn competitive Tau build, but between what's out there Chaos Daemons and Centstar always give me problems. (When you know how to play them as you said)

I love Tau. I love my 3 giant squads of Flesh Hounds and Horror support summoning more dogs. I love them multi-charging Fire Warriors and Riptides to the point that they sweep both units despite not causing a wound to the Riptide.

So I lost the game 14-15, but the guy was cheating a bunch and making shady moves, so in my book I count it as a win. Overall, he killed a lot of my army, but I killed him down to maybe 3 units.