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Long time lurker, ran into this question while building a Tyranid list intended for tournament play the other day.

I was looking using Tyrannocytes to deep strike Tyranofexes in support of a Flyrant build, and I realized that if I wanted to, I could put a Flyrant in one of the Tyrannocytes. This prompted a long rules discussion at my local shop about what happens when the tyrant gets out of the pod.

As best we can tell, per the Tyrannocyte rules (may take one tyranid unit, up to 20 models, MC's count as 20 models, place disembarking models within 6 inches of the Tyrannocyte), and the FMC rules for deep striking (a FMC that arrives via deep strike reserve always counts as being in swooping mode), the flyrant would be placed within 6 inches of the pod and be in flying mode.

Other than the FMC is not a MC argument, which I have seen go in circles several times and disagree with, am I missing anything?

The Flyrant would not be in Swooping mode. It arrived via the pod, not DS itself.

The fmc rules do not require the tyrant to arrive by deep striking, just that it enter from deep strike reserve. Furthermore, models in a deep striking transport count as deep striking, page 68, disembarking from deep striking transports.

babelfish wrote:
The fmc rules do not require the tyrant to arrive by deep striking, just that it enter from deep strike reserve. Furthermore, models in a deep striking transport count as deep striking, page 68, disembarking from deep striking transports.

the fmc do require you to arrive via deepstrike.

arriving in a deep striking transport is not arriving by deep strike. The transport is arriving by deepstrike [which has rules for what arriving by deep strike means, which the models disembarking do not follow].

The embarked unit is arriving from deep strike reserves, but is not arriving by deep strike.

blaktoof wrote:

babelfish wrote:
The fmc rules do not require the tyrant to arrive by deep striking, just that it enter from deep strike reserve. Furthermore, models in a deep striking transport count as deep striking, page 68, disembarking from deep striking transports.

the fmc do require you to arrive via deepstrike.

arriving in a deep striking transport is not arriving by deep strike. The transport is arriving by deepstrike [which has rules for what arriving by deep strike means, which the models disembarking do not follow].

The embarked unit is arriving from deep strike reserves, but is not arriving by deep strike.

Blacktoof is correct here:

Deep Striking and being in Deep Strike Reserves are things that both Units inside transport and transports do, but arriving "by Deep Strike" means folowing the Deep Striking arrival rules: Place 1 model, scatter it, etc... which the passengers cannot do or be doing.

(by) Deep Strike = / = Deep Striking (or being in Deep Strike Reserves)

The Flyrant is not arriving by Deep Strike (required for FMC to swoop), but disembarking from the pod, which means normal movement (gliding)

Actually, rethinking this. Its a moot point. The MCs are different from FMCs in the book. Does the Tyrannocyte have permission to transport FMCs ?

BlackTalos

The requirement to swoop for flying monstrous creatures keys off of arriving from deep strike reserve, not from deep striking. "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode." pg 68, main rule book.

Tyrannocytes may carry a single Tyranid unit, with a model limit of 20. If a unit is a Monstrous Creature, it counts as 20 models. The Tyrannocyte rules do not directly give or deny Flying Monstrous Creatures permission to embark in the pod. In order to determine if they can, we have to determine if a Flying Monstrous Creature is a Monstrous Creature. Pg 68, main rule book: "Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional rules".

Flying monstrous creatures not monstrous creatures.

they are two different unit types.

Just as Jump infantry are not infantry.

they are two different unit types.

Look at the unit entry for harpy, does it say monstrous creature or flying monstrous creature?

Look at the unit entry for carnifex does it say monstrous creature or flying monstrous creature.

they are two different unit types, and one has properties of the other but is not the other.

as such the statement of monstrous creature for tyrranocyte only applies to units with the type: monstrous creature. Not units with the type :Flying monstrous creature. As they are not the same.

I disagree based on the "Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures with additional rules' wording, and because it opens up some rules absurdities, such as the Monster Hunter rule, which specifies Monstrous Creatures but does not mention Flying Monstrous Creatures, working on Hive Tyrant with no wings but not working on a Hive Tyrant with wings.

Even if you are correct and Flying Monstrous Creatures are a distinct type separate from Monstrous Creatures, it does not impact the Tyrant in a Tyrannocyte question. The Tyrannocyte rules state that a single Tyranid unit may be placed in the Tyrannocyte. This gives us permission to put any Tyranid unit in the Tyrannocyte, regardless of unit type. The Tyrannocyte rules then go on to state that the unit may be of up to 20 models in size, and that individual Monstrous Creatures count as 20 models. This prevents such things as three Carnifexes or a Hive Tyrant with Tyrant Guard going into one Tyrannocyte.

If Flying Monstrous Creatures are not Monstrous Creatures, then the rule that says Monstrous Creatures count as 20 models does not apply to them. This means that the Flying Monstrous Creatures would only be a single model, and opens up the possibility of putting a winged Hive Tyrant and three Tyrant Guard into the same Tyrannocyte, which, frankly, is more absurd than having winged Hive Tyrant in the Tyrannocyte.

FMCs follow all the same rules as MCs with additional rules. Just as jump infantry follow all the rules for infantry with additional rules. They might be different unit types due to the additional rules but they follow ALL the rules for their "parent type".

Additionally, and to the topic of the thread, the FMC would be following all the rules for disembarking from a vehicle. Not deep striking. Basically the deep strike happens, then the disembark. Since the disembark is the most recent action (and the one that places it on the field) that is the one that you need to follow.

Swooping FMCs must move a minimum of 12 inches. I guess you could claim the tyrranocyte rule is more advanced and allows a swooping FMC to travel 6 inches for that phase, but it seems like a stretch to me.

babelfish wrote:
BlackTalos

The requirement to swoop for flying monstrous creatures keys off of arriving from deep strike reserve, not from deep striking. "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode." pg 68, main rule book.

Indeed, but by the RaW terms we know, "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode." makes very little sense or at least is very ambiguous.

"Deep Strike Reserve" is a Term that rules think is clearly defined, but it is not in the rulebook. It usually denotes Units that are in Reserve, but arriving by Deep Strike.
"arrives via" would suggest that the arrival method of the Unit is what follows. But as described, one can only "be" in "Deep Strike Reserve", it is not a method of arrival.

So either A) these rules are a complete jumble and use a "Deep Strike Reserve arrival method" no one knows about, or B) they mean that when a FMC arrives "by Deep Strike" (which is how i read it) so it must be following all the Rules for placement by Deep Strike (and not disembarking from the Pod).
There is also C) where you define the word "via" as "from", so the rules is "If a FMC arrives from Deep Strike Reserve," which would work exactly as you suggest it would.

Look up the definition of "Via" and let me know if you are still of opinion "C" or if you can agree to "B" or "A"

Are we about to get back into the whole Deep Strike Reserves =?= Deep Strike thing again?

 Happyjew wrote:
Are we about to get back into the whole Deep Strike Reserves =?= Deep Strike thing again?

No, that's accepted Fact

Just having some trouble with what "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve," actually means. Just being in Reserves? Arriving "by Deep Strike"?

But since it's a Flying Monstrous Creature, and not a Monstrous Creature (hence can't embark) isn't it a bit moot?

BlackTalos, my group ended up stumped by that as well. Deep strike reserves is basically defined as what you call the reserves that deep striking units go into, but the entire section is a mess.

It is clear that the pod (or, say, a marine drop pod) is placed into deep strike reserves. It is not clear if the occupants are in deep strike reserve. As best I can tell, the exact status of the occupants is never defined.

Furthermore, arriving via deep strike reserves is never defined. Does a pod that is in deep strike reserve that enters play count as arriving via deep strike reserves? Do the occupants?

The common sense interpretation seems to be yes to both, but common sense interpretation translates to HIWPI, not RAW.

Grendel, the tyrannocyte rules give permission to transport any tyranid unit, with a model cap of 20 and a note that MC's count as 20 models. If FMC is not the same as MC, it would not prohibit the FMC from using the tyrannocyte. Best I can tell, all that would happen is the MC = 20 models rule would not apply to FMC's, which opens up the possibility of a tyrant with wings being able to get in the pod with tyrant guard and a tyrant without wings not being able to bring tyrant guard into a pod.

babelfish wrote:
Grendel, the tyrannocyte rules give permission to transport any tyranid unit,

That's not what it says, "it can carry a single unit with the tyranid faction" isn't the same as "any unit".
Otherwise they'd be full of Hierophants all day

The Tyrant would need to move 12" when disembarking which isn't possible so it's in glide mode.

 grendel083 wrote:

Otherwise they'd be full of Hierophants all day

Wouldn't you be able to drop pod a Hierophant in a Tyrannocyte?

"Gargantuan Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have the additional rules and exceptions given below. "

It's the same wording as with FMC's "Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures..."

On Topic: Why would you put the flyrant in a Tcyte? FMC's have Deep Strike by default

Nighttail wrote:


On Topic: Why would you put the flyrant in a Tcyte? FMC's have Deep Strike by default

The pod protects the Flyrant from mishaps due to impassable terrain.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The Tyrant would need to move 12" when disembarking which isn't possible so it's in glide mode.

This. /Thread.

babelfish wrote:
BlackTalos, my group ended up stumped by that as well. Deep strike reserves is basically defined as what you call the reserves that deep striking units go into, but the entire section is a mess.

It is clear that the pod (or, say, a marine drop pod) is placed into deep strike reserves. It is not clear if the occupants are in deep strike reserve. As best I can tell, the exact status of the occupants is never defined.

Furthermore, arriving via deep strike reserves is never defined. Does a pod that is in deep strike reserve that enters play count as arriving via deep strike reserves? Do the occupants?

The common sense interpretation seems to be yes to both, but common sense interpretation translates to HIWPI, not RAW.

Grendel, the tyrannocyte rules give permission to transport any tyranid unit, with a model cap of 20 and a note that MC's count as 20 models. If FMC is not the same as MC, it would not prohibit the FMC from using the tyrannocyte. Best I can tell, all that would happen is the MC = 20 models rule would not apply to FMC's, which opens up the possibility of a tyrant with wings being able to get in the pod with tyrant guard and a tyrant without wings not being able to bring tyrant guard into a pod.

Well actually the whole "(by) Deep Strike = / = Deep Striking (or being in Deep Strike Reserves) " is indeed quite clear in the rules.

Drop Pods: (From the Blood Angels Codex)

Drop Pods and Units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves

So (for Blood Angels at least) passengers are in Deep Strike Reserves.

The Deep Strike rules: (Rulebook)

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

Who is disembarking? Deep Striking Units. IE passengers are Deep Striking

Finally, arriving "by Deep Strike": (Rulebook)

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.

In order to arrive "by Deep Strike", you need to place models and scatter, etc.

Conclusion:
Any MC in a pod must be a Deep Striking Unit, can possibly be in Deep Strike Reserves (BA Tacticals are), but cannot be arriving "by Deep Strike".

Now because the actual rule is: "arrives via Deep Strike Reserve" we must either assume this means arriving "from" reserves (which does not follow the Definition of "via") or they mean that when a FMC arrives "by Deep Strike".

This choice is indeed unclear, because of the words "Reserves" and "via" in that rule.

BlackTalos:

Basically, what you said. The only thing is that the common usage of the word via is broad enough that both points can be argued. I am inclined to think that arriving in a transport that was in deep strike reserves means that the unit arrived via deep strike reserves. For example, if Special Pretty Marine Faction #73 had a rule where sternguard who entered play via deep strike reserve had twin linked for a turn, i would take that to mean that if they came in using a drop pod, they would be twin linked. I do not think that there is a locked in stone clear RAW answer.


N.I.B, Nighttail:

If you dig around in the forums you will find several long threads arguing over if FMC's get deep strike inherently, or if they need it to be written into the unit profile. The argument keys off of the question of if 'counts as jump infantry when gliding' grants deep strike before the game starts. I a) think that the RAW situation is such that FMC's can't deep strike unless the unit itself has deep strike, b) think that it is an oversight on GW's part and that if they ever address it in FAQ the answer will be yes, of course they can, c) don't deep strike my Hive Tyrants because of a), and d) let my opponents deep strike their Tyrants because of b).

If you think that being a FMC grants deep strike and the model does not need to have the Deep Strike rule written into it's profile, there is very little tactical reason to put the tyrant in the pod. If the way i interpret the rules is correct, it has limited use-i would not buy a pod for a tyrant, but might tuck a tyrant into a pod if i decided that the unit i bought the pod for would be better used being deployed AND i thought that having a tyrant deep strike (and thus loose a turn of shooting) was worth it against the particular opponent I was facing.


grendel:

Ok, i'll agree that "a single unit with the tyranid faction" isn't the same as "any unit", but i don't think that the distinction between the two phrases is meaningful for this conversation. If you wanted to put a unit in a Tyrannocyte, the rules direct you to check two things. First, is the unit a member of the tyranid faction? Second, is the unit 20 models or less?. If the answer to both of those questions is yes, the unit can go into the Tyrannocyte. There is an additional rule that prevents more than one MC to be in the pod by making each MC count as 20 models.

The Tyrannocyte rules do not care if the unit type is MC, FMC, Beast, Infantry, Jump Infantry, what have you. If the unit meets those two requirements, it can go in the pod. The issue is not can a tyranid FMC get into the tyrannocyte. The issue is what happens when the FMC gets out of the tyrannocyte.

Side note-I don't have books to hand, nor do I play gargantuant creatures, but, by memory, there is nothing in the Tyrannocyte or gargantuant creature rules that would prohibit a Hierophant from being in a Tyrannocyte. I could easily be wrong about that.

Dozer Blades:

The FMC rules states that when a FMC enters play via deep strike reserves the FMC counts as being in swooping mode. Counts as being in swooping mode does not mean that the FMC immediately makes a swooping move. In a non-tyrannocyte deep striking FMC (say, with a deamon FMC), the model is placed, deep strike scatter is resolved, and the model ends up in that position. The model does not then make a 12" minimum swoop move. It just counts as swooping, with the pluses and minuses of having swooped (hard to hit, can be grounded, can't charge the next turn, so forth).

babelfish wrote:
BlackTalos:

Basically, what you said. The only thing is that the common usage of the word via is broad enough that both points can be argued. I am inclined to think that arriving in a transport that was in deep strike reserves means that the unit arrived via deep strike reserves. For example, if Special Pretty Marine Faction #73 had a rule where sternguard who entered play via deep strike reserve had twin linked for a turn, i would take that to mean that if they came in using a drop pod, they would be twin linked. I do not think that there is a locked in stone clear RAW answer.

Indeed, however i can think of no other rule in existence where you would "arrive via Deep Strike Reserve".

Most rules either say (Grey Knights):

all units from this Detachment can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.

Clear use of "from", not via.

Or they would say:

Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range

Both of the above exists in numerous examples, but i don't think i've ever seen "Via" + "Deep Strike Reserve"