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Do the swooping FMCs get the cover save from intervening models?
In example: Flyrant behind a line of gaunts. Does the flyrant get 2+ from jinking + intervening models?

I've been searching for an old post to clarify this but I cant find it.
Thanks guys

Jinking doesn't add to your cover save, you just get one.

Yes, FMCs can get a cover save for intervening models.

Yeah jink is now just a flat 4+, whereas intervening model cover save is 5+ now. The Flyrant absolutely gets a cover save, however the saves do not stack. You have to decide if you want to jink to get a better cover save in that case, or just take the 5+ intervening model cover save. This applies even if the FMC is swooping

Okay guys! Thanks a lot.
What about the shrouded rule provided by a Malanthrope/Venonthrope? Does stack with jink?


Edited, bad wording.

Cover saves only stack with Stealth & Shroud, or any other rule that specifies +1 or more bonus to cover, which I believe is what the Venomthrope projects. Jink can also be stacked with Skilled Rider.

It is also worth noting that units only get cover from Intervening models if the LOS goes THOUGH the models and the gaps between them, not OVER. There is no way a Flying Hive Tyrant gets cover from Gaunts

Venomthropes provide Shrouded, which does stack with jink. Night Fight gives Stealth, which also stacks with Jink. Stealth and Shrouded stack with intervening models and with terrain (but intervening models and terrain do not stack with each other, or with jink).

A Tyrant who jinks in the open has a 4+. A Tyrant who jinks at night has a 3+. A Tyrant who jinks next to a venomthrope has a 2+.

A Tyrant who does not jink next to a venomthrope has a 5+. A tyrant who does not jink, at night, next to a venomthrope, has a 4+.

A tyrant behind some guy has a 5+. A tyrant behind some guy at night has a 4+. A tyrant behind some guy, next to a venomthrope, has a 3+. A tyrant behind some guy, at night, next to a venomthrope, has a 2+.

A tyrant behind a ruin has a 4+. A tyrant behind a ruin at night has a 3+. A tyrant behind a ruin, next to a venomthrope, has a 2+.

If you are careful with your venomthrope and tyrant placement you can end up with 2+ cover saves in a surprising amount of situations, particularly on first turn. If you end up going second and there is a ruin in your deployment zone, it is entirely possible to have your venomthropes and 4 or 5 tyrants all have 2+ saves, which can be a nasty surprise for someone who thinks they can kill a tyrant before you can get them in the air.

 Galef wrote:
Cover saves only stack with Stealth & Shroud, or any other rule that specifies +1 or more bonus to cover, which I believe is what the Venomthrope projects. Jink can also be stacked with Skilled Rider.

It is also worth noting that units only get cover from Intervening models if the LOS goes THOUGH the models and the gaps between them, not OVER. There is no way a Flying Hive Tyrant gets cover from Gaunts

I don't agree with you here...

They wouldn't get a cover save if the shooter was on an elevated position and could see over it...but your plain old space marine shooting at a flyrant over a line of gaunts...the flyrant would get the save

babelfish wrote:
Venomthropes provide Shrouded, which does stack with jink. Night Fight gives Stealth, which also stacks with Jink. Stealth and Shrouded stack with intervening models and with terrain (but intervening models and terrain do not stack with each other, or with jink).

A Tyrant who jinks in the open has a 4+. A Tyrant who jinks at night has a 3+. A Tyrant who jinks next to a venomthrope has a 2+.

A Tyrant who does not jink next to a venomthrope has a 5+. A tyrant who does not jink, at night, next to a venomthrope, has a 4+.

A tyrant behind some guy has a 5+. A tyrant behind some guy at night has a 4+. A tyrant behind some guy, next to a venomthrope, has a 3+. A tyrant behind some guy, at night, next to a venomthrope, has a 2+.

A tyrant behind a ruin has a 4+. A tyrant behind a ruin at night has a 3+. A tyrant behind a ruin, next to a venomthrope, has a 2+.

If you are careful with your venomthrope and tyrant placement you can end up with 2+ cover saves in a surprising amount of situations, particularly on first turn. If you end up going second and there is a ruin in your deployment zone, it is entirely possible to have your venomthropes and 4 or 5 tyrants all have 2+ saves, which can be a nasty surprise for someone who thinks they can kill a tyrant before you can get them in the air.

So clear that is blinding me! Thanks, mate. But what about the argument given by Galef before your explanation? I'm agree with your explanation, but my gaming group could rage if my swooping flyrant gets the cover save provided by the shrouded rule of the Malanthrope improved by some gaunts.

Eh, it depends on the exact position of the models. If the Marines are far enough away from the gaunts, they can draw line of sight over the gaunts instead of through them. I have been in both situations.

babelfish wrote:
Eh, it depends on the exact position of the models. If the Marines are far enough away from the gaunts, they can draw line of sight over the gaunts instead of through them. I have been in both situations.

You reckon? All it takes is for 1mm of the Hive Tyrants model to be behind a gaunt (And this isn't very difficult do achieve) and they get a cover save....

True, but I have never been willing to ask for saves based on the tip of the tail being obscured. RAW, you would have to have some elevation above the gaunts to shoot over them.

babelfish wrote:
True, but I have never been willing to ask for saves based on the tip of the tail being obscured. RAW, you would have to have some elevation above the gaunts to shoot over them.

But you cannot draw los to tails, or wings, or weapons for that matter. Gaunts can reach a tyrants knee. If a units of gaunts is between you and the tyrant then the tyrant has cover.

I am specifically talking about the Flying Tyrant, whose being supported by his tail. Since the tail (not part of his body) would be the only portion obsured by the Guants (assuming no elevation involved), the Tyrant could not claim cover.

If you are talking about a Tyrant w/o wings (left his Redbull on the Hiveship), then yes, you could be obscured by intervening Guants (and the gaps between them)

 Galef wrote:
I am specifically talking about the Flying Tyrant, whose being supported by his tail. Since the tail (not part of his body) would be the only portion obsured by the Guants (assuming no elevation involved), the Tyrant could not claim cover.

If you are talking about a Tyrant w/o wings (left his Redbull on the Hiveship), then yes, you could be obscured by intervening Guants (and the gaps between them)

And if I've modeled my Flyrant using the standing legs instead of the moronic tail? Or do you have some citation that a Flyrant must be using the tail?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

der soulstealer wrote:
I think there may be a misunderstanding of how "intervening models" work.

If, when you come to allocate a Wound, the target model’s body (see General Principles) is at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer, Wounds allocated to that model receive a cover save.

If a target is partially obscured from the firer by models from a third unit (models not from the firer’s unit, or from the target unit), it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain.

"in the same way as if it was behind terrain" = "is at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer" ?

If it's partially obscured, it has a 5+ cover save. It doesn't say "at least 25% obscured" it says "partially.
You're inserting a requirement the rules don't have.

And 25% cover is determined including wings, weapons and all, unlike line of sight, which is restricted to the bulk of the body.

You're going to need to prove that. I have no permission to draw LoS to a wing, and cover is determined by LoS.

If you have modeled your flying Tyrant on the standing legs, that is fine. You would most likely get a cover save from the Guants and not be forces to Jink

Some might consider that modeling for advantage, however I do not, because you clearly used the parts that come with the kit.

All my previous statements are in regards to the "directed" way to assemble a Flying Tyrant. (notice I did not use the word "correct")

der soulstealer wrote:
1. It says "in the same way as if it was behind terrain", that same way requires you to be at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer, doesn't it ?

Why do you say that? The rule says "partially obscured". Does that mean 25% or more? That doesn't seem, to me, what the word "partially" means. For someone who has been adamant about applying the correct definition of words, you seem really eager to ignore this one.

2. Indeed,

Glad we agree that wings are not used to determine 25%.

rigeld2 wrote:

der soulstealer wrote:
1. It says "in the same way as if it was behind terrain", that same way requires you to be at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer, doesn't it ?

Why do you say that? The rule says "partially obscured". Does that mean 25% or more? That doesn't seem, to me, what the word "partially" means. For someone who has been adamant about applying the correct definition of words, you seem really eager to ignore this one.

Well the rules do state it. ""partially hidden or obscured by terrain, which is also known as being in cover....Where this is the case the model will be entitled to a cover save"" Then they define partially hidden and obscured as 25% in the next paragraph.

2. Indeed,

Glad we agree that wings are not used to determine 25%.

Wings do not count for LOS purposes.

"""Sometimes, all that will be visible of a model is a weapon, banner or other ornament he is carrying. In these cases, the model is not visible. Similarly, we ignore wings, tails and antennae even though they are technically part of a model’s body"""

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

der soulstealer wrote:
1. It says "in the same way as if it was behind terrain", that same way requires you to be at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer, doesn't it ?

Why do you say that? The rule says "partially obscured". Does that mean 25% or more? That doesn't seem, to me, what the word "partially" means. For someone who has been adamant about applying the correct definition of words, you seem really eager to ignore this one.

Well the rules do state it. ""partially hidden or obscured by terrain, which is also known as being in cover....Where this is the case the model will be entitled to a cover save"" Then they define partially hidden and obscured as 25% in the next paragraph.

As part of the terrain rules, sure. That's not the rule being discussed, however. Do the terrain rules define "partially obscured" for all uses of that phrase., everywhere throughout the rulebook?
Because the rule being discussed awards a 5+ cover save for being partially obscured.

2. Indeed,

Glad we agree that wings are not used to determine 25%.

Wings do not count for LOS purposes.

"""Sometimes, all that will be visible of a model is a weapon, banner or other ornament he is carrying. In these cases, the model is not visible. Similarly, we ignore wings, tails and antennae even though they are technically part of a model’s body"""

... Are you agreeing or disagreeing? Because what you just said supports my statement, but if you agreed then why bother?

rigeld2 wrote:
As part of the terrain rules, sure. That's not the rule being discussed, however. Do the terrain rules define "partially obscured" for all uses of that phrase., everywhere throughout the rulebook?
Because the rule being discussed awards a 5+ cover save for being partially obscured.

That is shooting rules and intervening models rules.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing? Because what you just said supports my statement, but if you agreed then why bother?

That is agreement and posting the rule since it wasnt.