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Am I reading these leaked rules right? It says any unit containing at least one model generates blood tithe points. Then it says when you spend them all blood tithe units gain certain abilities. Would an allied IC attached to a blood tithe unit gain the benefits such as FNP?

If you can provide the rules in question, then we could have a more profitable discussion. Otherwise, it's probably best to wait for the codex to actually be released.

I'm sure that the Blood Tithe special rules gives instructions about which specific models may receive the Tithe benefits.

http://forum.spikeybits.com/showthread.php?20775-Chaos-Space-Marines-Rumor-Roundup

Scroll to the bottom of the first post.

Yes you get both based on where the comma is in that sentence.

A Blood Tithe point is generated each time...

(snip other reason)

A character with the Blood for the Blood God! special rule is slain, or slays an enemy character in a challenge.

Whats posted on the other forum is likely a poorly written summery of the rules and is muddling some of the finer points.

Going on wording given, yes IC gains bonus whilst joined. Indeed join a Daemonkin IC to a nondaemonkin unit and they would benefit. The issue being taking allies reduces opportunities for gain blood tithe points in the first place...

I am thinking allied CSM sorcerers gaining FNP in a Daemonkin unit could be a thing. Put him on a bike in a group of hounds. Now you have psychic shriek giving blood tithe points and potential FNP on sorcerer for perils.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Whats posted on the other forum is likely a poorly written summery of the rules and is muddling some of the finer points.

There are images of the codex at the bottom.

That appears to be the case.

I was thinking it was a poor summery because it suggested models and units could have the special rule interchangeably. This is likely a mistake from GW. Not having a datasheet in front of me its not clear if its a special rule units have(as the table suggests) or a special rule a model in a unit can have (as the rules for accruing tithe points suggests).

OP did you change your question completely? Because my answer no longer makes any sense...

No. I did not understand your answer either lol. I edited the original question just to add the word "allied" in front of IC for clarity.

This is not really related to this thread, but I just realized that a Sorcerer on Bike joined to a unit of FleshHounds would get at least a 3+ Deny the Witch, or a 2+ if the Sorcerer has a higher ML that the enemy psyker.

Drakkol wrote:
No. I did not understand your answer either lol. I edited the original question just to add the word "allied" in front of IC for clarity.

Well this is embarrassing. I think I started answering before I even read the whole thing. My apologies.

Out of interest then... is there any restriction on a character with a mark different to khorne, joining some fearless daemons of khorne?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cos my nurgle biker lord would be quite happy with some fleshhounds.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Out of interest then... is there any restriction on a character with a mark different to khorne, joining some fearless daemons of khorne?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cos my nurgle biker lord would be quite happy with some fleshhounds.

No restrictions exist, though not the CSM restriction of not joining units with a different mark still count (so you couldn't add a Daemonkin juggerlord to the same unit).

After a bit of research it seems, at least from my interpretation of the rules, that a DPrince or BT summoned via the Blood Tithe can switch his flight mode the same turn it comes in DS.

Pages 68, you see the rules for FMC and DS, it says"...a FMC that comes in DS from RESERVES, is treated has beenin swooping mode".

I looked at the scans of the Blood Tithe pages of the codex, it simply says that Deamons summoned with the Blood Tithe arrive via DS, no mention of reserves or anything.

So first, Deamons from the Blood Tithe arn't in reserves for the obvious reason that they don't exist before the game.

But you can argue that it is the same with Deamons summoned with Malefic powers, so i checked how the Powers where written, it simply said that its an Summon/Evocation( dunno in english whats the term used, in french its Invocation), so i checked page 26 for those, it clearly says "...Summoned units, arrive using the DS rules, this unit is under controle of the player who used the power and its treated like coming from the reserves for rules purposes..."

No where in the Blood tithe rules is there a mention such as this, no where does it says "...units summoned via Blood Tithe, are treated as coming from reserves for rules purpose..." or anything the like.

And a FMC is treated to be in swooping mode only if it comes in DS from reserves.

So if i'm not mistaken a BT or Dp summoned via the Blood Tithe can switch flight modes the turn it comes in DS.

There is also the fact that DS happens at the beginning of the turn, and you change flight mode at the start of your movement phase, and a good thing with 7th Ed( one of the few) is that they made a difference between beginning of the turn, and movement phase, unlike precedent editions.

I'm not certain I agree.. but lets have a think further.

Blood points are used at the start of any friendly turn.
(The axe of ruin however can summon in any phase).

A summoned unit, arrives immediately via deep strike.

The turn Summary (p17 BRB) has the start of the turn as a phase before the movement phase.


Ok deep strike- 162

The first para is about coming from reserves, which doesn't apply so we will ignore that.

The rules for placing models are fine, and will work the same for each bullet.

Ok- "In the Movement Phase during which they arrive, Deep striking units may not move further, other than to disembark from a deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one"

This is a biggy, summoned units aren't coming in the movement phase, so there is a question as to whether this restriction even applies.

The next para about ruins applies.

The next para about shooting phases and assault phases assumedly apply.

transports we can ignore, Mishaps would work the same way.

We also need FMC deployment.

If a FMC arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in swooping mode (I hate this rule)

I don't think the difference in wording between 'Deep Strike Reserve' and 'Deep Strike' is relevant here.

But I do think that as summoning happens before the movement phase, there is no restriction on moving in the movement phase after summoning. So you could change flight modes (but not assault).

That's clearly a loophole.

But then again regular reserves also come in at the start of the turn- so the wording doesn't work for normal deep strike.

The thing is that nothing says that a FMC cannot change its flight mode when it DS.

it just says that it is treated as been swooping, it doesn't say that you can't change, just that if you don't do anything, it stays like this.

Its something i think that was implemented so that people would stop have arguments if one of them forgot to declare that the FMC that came from DS, was actually swooping or not.

i saw many arguments starting because of that, when one player had a DPrince coming in DS, when the shooting phase of the foe came, the guy says that he will Jink and that he only hits on 6's, while no one heard him declare that the Prince was swooping or that he forgot, because for him it was natural to have the prince in swooping mode when it came via DS.

But with the FMC paragraphe on the deployement methode no where does it says that you can't change flight mode in the same turn or that you need to be able to move to do so.

Simply that by defaults, it is in swooping mode.

" at the start of its move, a FMC must declare whether it is swooping or gliding until the start of its next turn"

"If a FMC arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in swooping mode"

"in the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.. "

It is an odd conflict about FMC needing to move to continue swooping; however the rules are quite clear. Before any movement occurs, you need to declare whether you are swooping or gliding. To deep strike, you must declare that you are swooping. This will then be in effect until your next turn. Oddly and poorly thought out for the Daemonkin, as it would seem rather inefficient. However, it's also quite clear and unambiguous. There's also the greater restriction on charging the turn you come in from reserves, which is effectively what is happening. So no way are you getting a charge off, no matter what you do, on the turn you are conjured.

Thats not what i'm saying, of course the Ds rules are clear on that.

What i'm saying si that a FMC thats comes into play via DS, doesn't have to wait two turns before being able to assault.

Also nothing makes you declare that the FMC is swooping, nothing says that you have to declare it as swooping, it just says that you treat it like it is swooping like in" allready swooping from precedent turn".

Also its not because something cannot move during the movement phase that it ignore the movement phase and that its prohibited to do anything, it just cannot move, switching flight modes doesn't require you to move, it only require you to declare what you do.

An example would be that if a FMC is swooping since the precedent turn and you switch to gliding, you don't have to move the model.

In a more concrete way; Turn1 FMC is in swooping, and move 18", turn 2, change to gliding and doesn't move.

The fact that you don't move doesn't prohibite you to switch to gliding, so why would it be different when you DS?, nothing prevents you of doing so.

The way the FMC and DS rule is written is that the model counts as been allready in swooping mode, not that you are obligated to declare it.

Also Deamons from the Deamonkin are not conjured like Deamons from the malefic powers, they simply DS and doesn't count has coming from reserves, contrary to Deamons from malefic powers where it does say that they count as comin from reserves.

Now where i'm going with this is not that you can assault the same turn you DS'ed that would be absurde to claim that, but you don't have to wait two whole turns before been able to assault like people though.

No one is arguing for charging the turn they arrive. They are arguing for a charge the turn after they arrive instead of the turn after that. If you can't change modes of travel the turn they arrive, have fun charging in two more turns, probably after the game is over. If you can change modes the turn you arrive, you'll be able to charge that next turn, which is more than likely going to be turn five.

greytalon666 wrote:
No one is arguing for charging the turn they arrive. They are arguing for a charge the turn after they arrive instead of the turn after that. If you can't change modes of travel the turn they arrive, have fun charging in two more turns, probably after the game is over. If you can change modes the turn you arrive, you'll be able to charge that next turn, which is more than likely going to be turn five.

I think the point he is making is that since bloodtithe summoning happens BEFORE the movement phase, the model deep strikes before the movement phase as well. Therefore, it counts as swooping before the movement phase begins. Once the movement phase starts, you must declare the FMCs flight mode, and you can switch to gliding.

Yes, I agree with that, but Luke1705 does not. He was thinking everyone wanted tithe charges on the first turn lol

Just wanted to be clear on what we were saying.

Took a closer look at it and this is what I've come to:

Both the declaration of your flight mode and the expenditure of blood tithe points occur at the "beginning of your turn". What this means is that you could opt to expend blood points first, and then declare flight modes after that for the summoned models. I don't believe that there is anything prohibiting you from switching flight modes in that manner

Changing flight modes must be declared at the start of your move. Is this permissible if you are not allowed to move?

Actually upon further examination I have to redact my previous statement. This is because changing flight modes says "at the start of [the model's] move" and deep strike into the table is obviously a move. So can you do something "at the start of your move" before you move onto the table? You could, except for the fact that you have to be swooping when you deep strike onto the table. Therefore, you're already locked into swooping for that turn since you didn't declare gliding at the start of your move (which again, you couldn't since you had to be swooping to arrive via deep strike)

To sum up the sequence of events:

1) bloodthirster is summoned at the start of the turn via blood tithe, before movement phase

2) bloodthirster must declare swooping to come in via deep strike

3) bloodthirster moves onto the table via deep strike

4) since bloodthirster has already moved this turn, the "start of its move" has already passed and it must wait to alter flight mode until next turn

 luke1705 wrote:
Actually upon further examination I have to redact my previous statement. This is because changing flight modes says "at the start of [the model's] move" and deep strike into the table is obviously a move. So can you do something "at the start of your move" before you move onto the table? You could, except for the fact that you have to be swooping when you deep strike onto the table. Therefore, you're already locked into swooping for that turn since you didn't declare gliding at the start of your move (which again, you couldn't since you had to be swooping to arrive via deep strike)

To sum up the sequence of events:

1) bloodthirster is summoned at the start of the turn via blood tithe, before movement phase

2) bloodthirster must declare swooping to come in via deep strike

3) bloodthirster moves onto the table via deep strike

4) since bloodthirster has already moved this turn, the "start of its move" has already passed and it must wait to alter flight mode until next turn

Could also turn it around. Deep Striking only prevents you from moving "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move further ..."

If the summoning-deep-strike happens outside/before the movement phase, the restriction does not apply.

Thus

1) bloodthirster is summoned at the start of the turn via blood tithe, before movement phase

2) bloodthirster must declare swooping to come in via deep strike

3) bloodthirster is moved onto the table via deep strike

-- Movement phase begins --

4) since the bloodthirster has performed his deep strike outside the movement phase, he can move normally during the movement phase, thus he declares a switch to glide mode AND may move up to 12" as a jump monstrous creature (but still not charge, due to having changed "modes").