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So here is the question that was puzzling me all last night, it concerns the new Khorne Daemonkin codex and using blood tithe to summon a bloodthirster and what he can do the first turn - can he deepstrike in then run in the shooting phase and when he runs can he change flight mode?

So here is the use case:
-8 blood points spent, champion is removed and bloodthirster deepstrikes in
-bloodthirster is in swooping mode because of FMC deployment rule stating deep striking (also call deep strike reserves) means that he is swooping after deepstrike
-in the shooting phase he decides to make a run move, which under both the 'run' rule and the FMC swooping and running rule states that he will make a 'move'
-then he declares a flight mode change to gliding using the FMC flight mode change rule that states when making a 'move' (NOTE very important it does NOT say during the "movement phase" here) he can change flight modes, just cannot declare an assault in the same turn

So it is not clear in the flight mode change rules it does not state that there is a limitation on the number of flight changes that could occur in one turn...

It only says that the mode chosen will last until the next turn - so technically you could change flight modes twice in one turn and it keeps the latest change, RAW?

I need a RAW laywer to look closely at the deepstrike rule, FMC flight change rule and run rule to see what I am seeing here?

So basically, this would be a way that a bloodthrister could change flight modes the turn it is summoned (running in the shooting phase) without having to break the deepstriking from reserves swooping mode rule mentioned in FMC deployment section?

I'm afraid you're off on part of your RAW.
Under changing flight modes, it says, you change, for the rest of the turn. You need permission to change again, otherwise you are going against the part of the rule that says "for the rest of the turn"

Some people are trying to argue otherwise, but it appears to be grasping at straws. There are several other threads on this (under deamonkin), and the arguements tend to leap from point to point without anything concrete. (at one point arguing that all reserves are allowed to move normally from deepstrike, because "they dont arrive in the movement phase")

It's an unfortunate rule, but the price you pay for the bloodthirster is patience. It's not supposed to be an integral part of gameplay, It's the highest reward, not for every game, your main useful rewards are FNP etc.

It's just a fun flavorful addition to the codex, pity it's not very usefull.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641693.page

Not arguing the point that the effect is for the rest of the turn, I agree with you on that. But it looks like the changing flight mode rule is not triggered when the FMC deepstrikes NOT from reserves (similar to gate of infinity or skies of fury from a storm raven)

(For people not familiar with the argument here, in the new Daemonkin Codex it says that units coming in from blood tithe come in via deep strike and does not state implicitly state that they count as coming in from deep strike reserves like it does under conjuration in the rulebook)

Under FMC, at the top, it states that a FMC is 'Monstrous Creature' with some special rules, so FMC inherits all the MC rules including its deep strike/deployment rules unless overridden in its special rules.

Under FMC deployment rule there is no specific case for 'deep strike' only 'deep strike reserve' which under the deep strike rule says is only in effect if the player places the unit into reserves at the start of the game.

So therefore, the Bloodthirster deep strikes using its parent MC rules as there is no special rule for the 'deep strike' case under FMC deployment rule.

And then the first time it moves, arguably its deep strike counts as its first move, the changing flight mode rule comes into effect and the player must declare gliding or swooping mode, which then lasts till the start of the next turn.

Comments? I think this is ligit and not a loophole it actually looks like less of a loophole than saying that the BT deepstrikes from reserves, which it was never placed into, and thus 'Deep Strike Reserve' rule being applied in FMC deployment.

Nope you're stuck in Swoop check the thread Rigeld posted it covers all the points.

The reserves arguement is just semantics. Like i mentioned, it's one of the points that was jumped to. Arguing that the FMC Can move because it doesn't come from reserves is ridiculous.
When you arrive by deepstrike you must arrive swooping. You have no permission to then change.

The argument that you're looking at is where the say "well it doesnt say he MOVES onto the table".

Their argument basically consists of saying, show me in the rulebook where it says I moved my model.

In the book under deepstrike it says, move the model onto the table, people try to seperate it into deepstrike reserves.

I'm sorry. It sucks, but trying to argue otherwise, is frankly dishonest, the rule is clear, people don't like it, and they want the rules to be different.

If you have to pour over several rules looking for errant commas to support your argument, you probably already know the answer ....

chaosmarauder wrote:
So here is the question that was puzzling me all last night, it concerns the new Khorne Daemonkin codex and using blood tithe to summon a bloodthirster and what he can do the first turn - can he deepstrike in then run in the shooting phase and when he runs can he change flight mode?

So here is the use case:
-8 blood points spent, champion is removed and bloodthirster deepstrikes in
-bloodthirster is in swooping mode because of FMC deployment rule stating deep striking (also call deep strike reserves) means that he is swooping after deepstrike
-in the shooting phase he decides to make a run move, which under both the 'run' rule and the FMC swooping and running rule states that he will make a 'move'
-then he declares a flight mode change to gliding using the FMC flight mode change rule that states when making a 'move' (NOTE very important it does NOT say during the "movement phase" here) he can change flight modes, just cannot declare an assault in the same turn

So it is not clear in the flight mode change rules it does not state that there is a limitation on the number of flight changes that could occur in one turn...

It only says that the mode chosen will last until the next turn - so technically you could change flight modes twice in one turn and it keeps the latest change, RAW?

I need a RAW laywer to look closely at the deepstrike rule, FMC flight change rule and run rule to see what I am seeing here?

So basically, this would be a way that a bloodthrister could change flight modes the turn it is summoned (running in the shooting phase) without having to break the deepstriking from reserves swooping mode rule mentioned in FMC deployment section?

Following the RAW there's a strong argument for the BT being able to change flight modes the turn he arrives as unlike Deep Striking as normal in the movement phase, the Daemonkin Codex allows the BT to be placed on the table before the movement phase begins without having moved. It perhaps doesn't make much sense but RAW often don't. Inevitably a lot of people don't like this even though it still can't charge on the turn it arrives and have put forward counter-arguments involving reserves, conjuring and all sorts. If you care to trawl through the details there's already been several threads on the issue, hopefully you can come to a conclusion that you think is right. Personally I don't think you were far off with your initial thoughts.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
as unlike Deep Striking as normal in the movement phase

This is incorrect, as you've been shown.

Normal arriving from Deep Strike also happens before the Movement Phase.

Following the RAW there's a strong argument for the BT being able to change flight modes the turn he arrives as unlike Deep Striking as normal in the movement phase, the Daemonkin Codex allows the BT to be placed on the table before the movement phase begins without having moved.

So much wrong here. First the BT has literally no RaW argument that allows it to change flight mode the turn it arrives. Secondly as proven in the thread normal DS also happens at the start of the turn before the movement phase. Thirdly deepstriking is movement as the rules clearly state so when you DS you are forced to declare swoop before moving then you must stay that flight mode until the start of your next turn.

Also in future please label your posts as HYWPI as it is 100% clearly not RaW or even RaI just your made rules based on what you want to be true.