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So, today I was really bored and as I just ordered some really sweet looking custom possessed off of ebay I diecided to see how bad they were because I heard horror stories of their uselessness. After this test game I can honestly say that they are possibly the worst unit the whole game unable to accomplish anything. This is coming from a person who argues that KBs are amazing just so you know. So, what draws me to this conclusion here are the factors listed below.

What I think Possessed Lore should be: These are the creatures of nightmare. While thankfully seldom encountered on the field of battle Emperor help those who are locked in combat with these abominations. Unlocking the full power of the Chaos gods these monsters trade in their soul and sanity to be almost on par with chaos lords in destructive capability.

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Possessed Current Problems:

Lack of Attacks + Lack of Weapon Skill: These two factors cause possessed to be unable to hit anything rendering their not so impressive 5 strength even less impressive

Cost: This unit is obviously made to be a marine killer and when the marine killer will actually still not pay for it after it kills the marines there is a problem.

Lack of Purpose:

-Possessed Vs. Vehicles: Strength 5... It ain't happening.

-Possessed Vs. Hordes: Toughness 4 and only a +3 save with that little attacks. It isn't going to work.

-Possessed Vs. MEQ: Read above.

-Possessed as Objective holders: Too many points to have a +3 save objective holder.

-Possessed Vs. Bikes: Have fun catching them with 6 inch movement.

Proposed Changes

These changes will aim at making possessed the perfect around killer unit for everything, but vehicles.
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Changes:

Min Squad size: -3

Cost: +24 ppm

Statline: +1 Weapon Skill, -3 Ballistic Skill, +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, +1 Wounds, +1 Initiative +d6 attacks (on top of the 2 attacks), +0 Leadership, +0 Save

Vessels of Chaos:

Hunger of the Damned- 1-2 Result to Gives shred and for every 6 rolled to wound gain a wound on a random possessed in the unit (may exceed starting limit). (Marine Killer/Beast killer)

Vorpal Claws- no one opposes the will of the Dark Gods 2-3 result to be AP 2 and and poison +2, but minus -1 initiative and Weapon Skill. (Terminator Killer)

Supernatural Speed- +d3 d6 attacks, +d6 iniative, -2 Weapon Skill, -1 Strength (Horde Killer)

Wargear: Claws of Chaos- AP 3

Upgrades: May purchase Daemon of Khorne for 5pts

Special Rules: We have no chance! When firing over-watch against possessed the unit must take a leadership test, if failed that unit instantly falls back and if after this possessed can't make their charge they may instead consolidate 1d6, Bulky

This unit may take a Landraider as a Dedicated Transport

Conclusion: While a monster in combat and on the field if these units are shot down it is an OBSCENE point determent. This also gives CSM the death stars unit everyone else has and is really good at hunting death stars giving draigo something to fear.
This unit will also be the core of your army in 1500-2000 point games with every other unit used to help them EX. KBs will be used to charge shooting units so possessed can be given right of way to chomp on death stars without being shot to pieces.

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
So, today I was really bored and as I just ordered some really sweet looking custom possessed off of ebay I diecided to see how bad they were because I heard horror stories of their uselessness. After this test game I can honestly say that they are possibly the worst unit the whole game unable to accomplish anything. This is coming from a person who argues that KBs are amazing just so you know. So, what draws me to this conclusion here are the factors listed below.

What I think Possessed Lore should be: These are the creatures of nightmare. While thankfully seldom encountered on the field of battle Emperor help those who are locked in combat with these abominations. Unlocking the full power of the Chaos gods these monsters trade in their soul and sanity to be almost on par with chaos lords in destructive capability.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Possessed Current Problems:

Lack of Attacks + Lack of Weapon Skill: These two factors cause possessed to be unable to hit anything rendering their not so impressive 5 strength even less impressive

Cost: This unit is obviously made to be a marine killer and when the marine killer will actually still not pay for it after it kills the marines there is a problem.

Lack of Purpose:

-Possessed Vs. Vehicles: Strength 5... It ain't happening.

-Possessed Vs. Hordes: Toughness 4 and only a +3 save with that little attacks. It isn't going to work.

-Possessed Vs. MEQ: Read above.

-Possessed as Objective holders: Too many points to have a +3 save objective holder.

-Possessed Vs. Bikes: Have fun catching them with 6 inch movement.

Proposed Changes

These changes will aim at making possessed the perfect around killer unit for everything, but vehicles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Changes:

Min Squad size: -3

Cost: +24 ppm

Statline: +1 Weapon Skill, -3 Ballistic Skill, +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, +1 Wounds, +1 Initiative +d6 attacks (on top of the 2 attacks), +0 Leadership, +0 Save

Vessels of Chaos:

Hunger of the Damned- 1-2 Result to Gives shred and for every 6 rolled to wound gain a wound on a random possessed in the unit (may exceed starting limit). (Marine Killer/Beast killer)

Vorpal Claws- no one opposes the will of the Dark Gods 2-3 result to be AP 2 and and poison +2, but minus -1 initiative and Weapon Skill. (Terminator Killer)

Supernatural Speed- +d3 d6 attacks, +d6 iniative, -2 Weapon Skill, -1 Strength (Horde Killer)

Wargear: Claws of Chaos- AP 3

Upgrades: May purchase Daemon of Khorne for 5pts

Special Rules: We have no chance! When firing over-watch against possessed the unit must take a leadership test, if failed that unit instantly falls back and if after this possessed can't make their charge they may instead consolidate 1d6.

This unit may take a Landraider as a Dedicated Transport

Conclusion: While a monster in combat and on the field if these units are shot down it is an OBSCENE point determent. This also gives CSM the death stars unit everyone else has and is really good at hunting death stars giving draigo something to fear.

Okay, that's waaay too much wishlisting. Possessed may not be stellar right now but giving all these buffs AND lowering their points cost? This has special-snowflake syndrome written all-over it with all these bonuses thrown on top of stat increases.

I get that you gave debuffs to WS or strength on some of the results but it still doesn't change the massive boost they gained. That and it just adds more paper-work to deal with.

They should probably be streamlined to something like this:

26 points ppm

WS4 BS1 S5 T5 W2 I4 A2 Ld9 3+/5++

Start off with 2 normal CCW. Have Rending built in instead of a AP3 close combat weapon.

Strength of the Damned: Shred

Vorpal Claws: AP2 Melee attacks

Supernatural Speed: +1 Initiative, Re-roll All Failed Rolls to Hit

And in one additional rule: "Endless Slaughter" - When Possessed disembark from a transport they are treated as if though they have disembarked from an Assault Vehicle, if the vehicle they disembark from has the Assault Vehicle special rule, the Possessed also gain Hammer of Wrath that turn.

Everything that has a + infront of it is addivitve so +24 ppm is 50 points because it is 26 points plus 24 points. All normal wargear and special rules are also still here. EX. It says that they have Claws of Chaos which is an AP 3 weapon, but they still retain their original CCW.

Oh! My bad, I completely missed the plus sign next to it. In that case, I understand why their stats look so outta whack to me. Whoopsies!

Now considering that what do you think of these changes?

They're not bad. But I think it would be better to follow the example of the Gal Vorbak statline in Forgeworld and make the rules a little more streamlined. So if you want 40-50+ point monstrosities it would be better if the things you wanted them to do were upgrade options rather than a plethora of special rules.

So keep the statline you have except without the +1 Strength and the extra D6 attacks.

With those stats they'll probably start off around 30-35 points.

Then give them options like this:

3 ppm - Warp-Infused Talons (S: User AP:3, Melee) (Combined with their single CCW it gives them +1 attack)
3 ppm - Wings (Makes them jump infantry)
2 ppm - Unholy Screech (Enemy units cannot overwatch when charged by this unit)

Then change the Vessels of Chaos to have this instead:

1-2: Hunger of the Damned- The unit gains shred and every roll of a 6 to hit allows you to make another attack. These additional attacks DO generate extra attacks on a roll of a 6 to hit.

3-4: Vorpal Claws- Melee attacks become AP 2 and gain rending.

5-6: Supernatural Speed - +D3 attacks and initiative.

You want to avoid having all those random D6 additions from before and the negative modifiers since you don't have control over the table. It's only in cases like the Doctrina Imperatives from the new Skiitari where you get to choose buffs in return for debuffs that it's acceptable because you can control when it happens. So it's best to keep the table all positive and factor that into the points cost.

The only problem with this is that it completely invalidates the Warp Talon entry, but I always felt they were too similar too begin with. Should just mush it together IMO.

adding wings makes them warp talons.

Someone once told me that I was not justified in lowering the ppm by lowering the bs on a melee unit. WS had to equal BS. I dont agree and how the hell do you lower the ppm if you don take stats away?

I have proposed the idea that possessed auto replace enemy space marine models before the game starts but after deployment. I look at it as paying 26ppm as paying for 2 marines, yours and his. This would make possessed impossible squads as they randomly break enemy squads up and could end up being singletons among 9 loyalist Space Marines. I proposed that if you paid for a squad of 10 possessed, your opponent had to keep rolling leadership test for each model in the squad you want possess until he failed 10 test. If only 3 models in that squad failed a ld check then only 3 are replaced by possessed and you nominate another squad to try and possess with your remaining 7. You continue this and when you run out of nominated squads you just repeat again by nominating the 1st squad you wanted to possessed. Leadership Check is different from fearless and Atsknf auto succeed. Those are for morale test but this possessed ld check is like psychic test.

Easy fix:

Make them cost as much as a Chosen. You're giving up shooting and wargear options for a better statline and a 5++.

Make them a troops choice instead of elites. Bam, instantly better unit worth bringing.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Easy fix:

Make them cost as much as a Chosen. You're giving up shooting and wargear options for a better statline and a 5++.

Make them a troops choice instead of elites. Bam, instantly better unit worth bringing.

The problem is man that they suck even worse than plague marines in CC and plague marines are tons more durable and have bolters... The problem with possessed is that they are expensive, but don't even get close to paying for themselves even when in CC. What they need is an ability or stat line that allows them to specialize in killing a certain types of unit, for right now they try to do everything at once and fail miserably at every single one.

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Easy fix:

Make them cost as much as a Chosen. You're giving up shooting and wargear options for a better statline and a 5++.

Make them a troops choice instead of elites. Bam, instantly better unit worth bringing.

The problem is man that they suck even worse than plague marines in CC and plague marines are tons more durable and have bolters... The problem with possessed is that they are expensive, but don't even get close to paying for themselves even when in CC. What they need is an ability or stat line that allows them to specialize in killing a certain types of unit, for right now they try to do everything at once and fail miserably at every single one.

Actually, I'd argue that the only real things that need to change to make Possessed plenty viable would be;
1. Use the Crimson Slaughter chart.
2. Drop their pts slightly to probably around 20/21pts a pop.
3. Give CSM's an Assault Vehicle transport that isn't a 240+ pts Land Raider!

I occasionally use CS allied Possessed/Warp Talons alongside a Tzeentch Daemon primary, and it's honestly quite amazing the difference in how well the 'daemonic' marines suddenly preform...
They stink it up within their own codex because they have 0 proper psychic supports, (they really enjoy Divination and/or Cursed Earth), and lack a viable delivery system... within a Daemon army however, while they still have no transport delivery system, the CS rules provide them with added speed/cover, alongside an army that can readily pull off T2 assaults.

Actually I really like grimskul's idea with having possessed disembarking as if they had been in an assault vehicle, you don't need to add a brand new assault transport and it's better than being open topped. And honestly I would do away with the random chart, just give them more options, it makes em more versatile and customizable. I fricken hate random charts in codices.