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Right now I'm trying to create a fluffy Brazen Beasts army and while the Brazen Onslaught Detachment is a pain to get to work the extra attack will allow me to wreck house "I hope" with otherwise lack-luster units.

Slaughtercult

Skulltaker: 100pts (Goes with termies)

8- Berzerkers: Chainaxes, meltabombs 191, w/ Rhino, combi-bolter 40

8- Berzerkers: Chainaxes, meltabombs 191, w/ Rhino, combi-bolter 40

5- Possessed: 150pts w/ Rhino, combi-bolter 40

Brazen Onslaught

4- Terminators: Icon of Wrath, everyone has two lightning claws, combi-melta 196 w/ Land Raider, combi-melta 240

3- Blood Crushers , Bloodhunter 140pts

3- Blood Crushers, Bloodhunter 140pts

Warmachines

Maulerfiend: 130pts

Ok here's the idea I have put so much armor on the table that I would not be able to put on the table otherwise in a Gorepack list. This truely spam-armor list (is also VERY and I mean OBSCENELY fluffy) offers a different play style that can beat certain armies with Tyranids being a plausible example. Then you ask? Why in the world are the blood crushers there? Couldn't you just get a unit of termies and take gore pack? Glad you said that random voice in my head (who is named Alfred) because they have two purposes. When a flesh hound unit hunts something down they kill it yes it is dead and they get a BT point. When a BC unit hunts something down it is dead albeit a little less cost effectively, BUUUUTT you get two BT points. You might also point out, just take bikers and all I'm going to say is bikers ain't ap three and are almost as expensive. Lets look at whats being compared.

Don't try to compare Hounds to Crushers hounds will always win because they are the powerhouse unit of the formation and every formation (except Charnel Cohort and Slaughtercult) is doing this and you can see it in the numbers (EX.Khorne's Bloodstorm 2-4 raptors 1-4 warptalons now lets compare it back to the two formations in debate. 2-4 Bloodcrushers, 1-4 Termies, and in the Gore pack 2-4 Bikers, 1-4 Hounds. If they were meant to measure up Crushers to hounds it would be 2-4 termies 1-4 crushers, but it isn't!

Hounds vs. Termies

Cost: Hounds (but you will need more so this can vary)

BS: MY termy squad actually has a gun so termies

Strength: tied

toughness: tied

Initative: tied

Attacks: terimes

Leadership: Ummm this one is weird because hounds are fearless, but termies have higher leadership... so no one wins here.

Sv: termies by far

Weapons: I really wonder... Termies have ap 3 shred claws and hounds have... nothing...

Bikers vs. Crushers

Cost: Bikers

WS: Crushers

BS: Bikers (they have guns)

Strength: Crushers

T: Same

W: Crushers

I: Same

Attacks: Crushers

Ld: Same scenario as up top, but severely less so because bikers only have Ld 8 so... I'm going to give this to crushers.

Sv: This one may differ, crushers have a +5 invul, but bikers have a +3 armor so it depends what you are fighting, but because average things the bikers are charging really won't be ap 3 ill give it to them, but again it depends on the game.

Weapons: Crushers ap 3 vs. ap nothing or ap 3-2 on the biker champ, but then crushers would be closer in cost so this goes to crushers by far.

This isn't to say that the gorepack isn't the beast people say it is actually I would say it is a tad bit better than my idea here, but it depends on what you want. Do you want cheap, but fast units or do you want to take a gamble and taker a tad tiny bit slower units that are more powerful, but cost more it can differ game to game. All I'm actually trying to prove here is that Brazen Onslaught is a valid formation that shouldn't be looked at as inferior just as "different".

Nice - I'm looking forward to a lot of army lists including Khorne Daemonkin somehow. I really want Brazen Onslaught to work as I think the +1 Attack is great. There's just the problem with Blood Crushers - they're not completely useless but they're not effective and they die rather fast - no problem, I just have to get the best out of the formation, meaning more units/models. More units/models will work against them though if they end up in the same combat and so there's just too much internal conflict in this formation.

I could post my own idea of an army list in a separate thread, but if you changed the headline of this, we could discuss all of our Khorne Daemonkin army lists...

Well I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with the list, but from a competitive stand point it looks a total mess. No threat at range and not enough threat in CC to make up for it. No real target saturation either.

Your Lord has no way of surviving a challenge or heck even living long enough to swing that axe. That axe is only really worth it on a DP for me (makes him S8 on the charge). However give the guy at least an invun.

You've paid well over the odds for Ap4 on the already overcosted Berzerkers. They should kill anything with a 4+ armour with ease anyway so you gain nothing just increase costs. Spend those points on an axe of Khorne and atleast you get something for those points. Rhinos aren't assault vehicles so work best as part as an entire armoured assault (so get the possessed on too).

Terminators are good for deepstriking melta and that's it. Where as deepstriking pure assault units is in general a terrible idea. Deepstriking is best for units that specialise in short ranged firepower.

Maulerfiends are great but need more target saturation at the moment they are the only target worth shooting at which they aren't tough enough to take.

The thing with the deep strike is the BT table FNP is going to let the BCs and Ts survive long enough to get into combat.

Also I drafted a new list.

Good luck with that let me know how FnP works out for your Terminators when Riptides let rip on them or for your BCs when missilesides or Serpents open up on them.

Interesting. I think I much prefer a t2 hound based assault to a T3 DS assault. Less vulnerable to reserve rolls.

So captyn what do you think I should change about my army list to make it viable other than what the (rather agressive might I add :3) suggestions given by Fling? Do you think the termies deepstriking is a bad idea or do you think it could possibly work? I am open to just getting a landraider and having them as the center piece of my army too if all else fails.

your list is fine as is, but i would go down the gorepack route, rather than the brazen onslaught.

Just updated the list I'm trying to make this list less vulnerable to actually CC armies. What I'm attempting to say here is that if a unit of flesh hounds charges a squad of boyz and it doesn't die on the charge that unit of flesh hounds will win... After a while... While a squad of Blood Crushers with +1 attacks will crush the unit they charge even if it is a bit more risky due to the fact that they may die a lot easier.

Blood crushers are only better if you're charging a 3+ save units. Lets compare your unit vs 10 hounds (generally I'd advise a bigger unit of hounds, the full 20 is best, we'll assume Banner of Blood for even points).

Day they charge 20 Ork boyz. Boyz do 1.11 wounds in overwatch. Lets assume the boyz are out of cover. So the Crushers have 16 attacks, 10.67 hits, 8.89 dead boyz (Nob is challenged out), 33.33 attacks back 3.7 unsaved wounds. You have 2 left but one on 1 wound. You kill 4 more, they do, they kill one and take a wound off the other you get ground out. 10 hounds kill 4.167 on HoW another 11.11 in combat. Boyz do 1.3 wounds, Nob rounds that out to 3 wounds so 2 dead Hounds. Next round dogs finish off boyz before they strike. Put the boyz in cover and that swings even more dramatically in favour of the Hounds.

10 Marines? Well Hounds have infiltrate so marines get 1 turn of rapidfire before they get assaulted. Crushers have to come through 2 rounds of fire (you have to get within 18" or marines back up so you take another round of fire).

So against crushers marines do 6.67 wounds with boltguns then another 1.11 in overwatch. You make it into combat with 1 guy on 1 wound he kills 3.33 marines and dies to return attacks (unless marines are in cover in which case he dies before he strikes).

How do the hounds get on? 4.44 wounds to shooting then 1.11 in overwatch. Hounds kill 4.89 including HoW marines do 1.5 wounds killing another hound if in cover hounds kill 4.44 and still now out number MEQs.

Hounds are superior in every way. Yes the examples are over simplified but a big unit of Hounds causes shooting armies problems and does better against CC armies as they tend to either have low saves or 2+ saves and again the increased survivability just swings it for you.

As much as I hate to admit it I'm stumped... Wait! Wait one solitary second! (Checks book) did you factor into your equitation these two factors 1.Crushers have ap3 hounds have ap nothing. 2. Crushers can take much better advantage of cover while closing with the enemy. Those two factors (the first one in particular make a huge difference! Also I have a question... Why don't crushers have toughness 5 like other cav?

The maths included the Ap3... Crushers are terrible.

Its disappointing, because they look awesome. but hounds really do outclass them. the option for a banner for reliable assault is nice, but not anywhere near as good as a scout move.

Hmmm I just can't belive that crushers would be cut down to one man with charging in. I've watched crushers and never seen that happen ever. There has to be a benefit somewhere...

I too really want to make crushers work. But they don't. I play tested against a friend. Granted he's a tau player. But one strength 8 shot drops a 3 would blood crusher with ease. Losing 40 odd points in one go. Or a single 16 point hound. I know which I prefer. And that alone makes hounds worth it I think.

If crushers were toughness 5 I may change my tune. Like bikes. Or thunderwolves. But they're not. And I have more luck with hounds.

If crushers were toughness 5 I may change my tune. Like bikes. Or thunderwolves. But they're not. And I have more luck with hounds.

Yeah they are the same cost as Thunder wolves! You get Ap3 vs rending (rending is better). You get 5 S5 attacks vs 3 S5. Have counter attack vs furious charge. T5 & 3+ vs T4 & 5++. It really makes no sense. Make the crushers T5 and there's an argument (TW are still better but by a much smaller margin).

Yes exactly. I run a lot of TW in my wolves army. Now them I really rate. And the equipment you can take for them buff them further. The odd storm shield and such. But blood crushers are just too squishy, as much as I live the models. And if they come up against things like terminators, they're well and truly screwed.

The other thing I think is underrated with hounds is scout. And the ability to confer that to your Lord. Almost guarantee a turn 2 charge.

I THINK I DID IT!!! I think I made this type of army playable! 1 question though should I try to fit another Mauler in there or should I just keep it the way it is?

Are the terminators supposed to ride in the land raider? If so then skulltaker can't join them. The raider can only carry ten models. Terminators count as 2.

And blood crushers are still terrible. No matter how hard you push their hell blades as good. They're rubbish. And this is coming from someone who really wants to use them and loves the models. There's a reason why the gorepack is popular and the onslaught isn't.

Umm termies count as two models? No... They don't I'm checking there profile and there is no bulky anywhere. Also, the Blood Crushers are rubbish when compared vs. hounds yes, but against bikes? I would think again!

Edit: DANG your right their profile doesn't say it, but their armor does... Ok I got an Idea I just have to give em more attacks to make up for lost termies.

List is updated again!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Read through the entire top post (I believe in you! You can do it! You can conquer the wall of text!) and don't immediately broadcast your point because I've stated a lot of information above that you need to consider!. Don't take this wrong I want to hear your opinion, but read top first, everyone commenting. Here is my evidence for reference to give to those who are typing opinions.


Don't try to compare Hounds to Crushers; hounds will always win because they are the powerhouse unit of the formation and every formation (except Charnel Cohort and Slaughtercult) is doing this and you can see it in the numbers (EX.Khorne's Bloodstorm 2-4 raptors 1-4 warptalons now lets compare it back to the two formations in debate. 2-4 Bloodcrushers, 1-4 Termies, and in the Gore pack 2-4 Bikers, 1-4 Hounds. If they were meant to measure up Crushers to hounds it would be 2-4 termies 1-4 crushers, but it isn't!

Hounds vs. Termies

Cost: Hounds (but you will need more so this can vary)

BS: MY termy squad actually has a gun so termies

W: Hounds

Strength: tied

toughness: tied

Initative: tied

Attacks: terimes

Leadership: Ummm this one is weird because hounds are fearless, but termies have higher leadership... so no one wins here.

Sv: termies by far

Weapons: I really wonder... Termies have ap 3 shred claws and hounds have... nothing...

Bikers vs. Crushers

Cost: Bikers

WS: Crushers

BS: Bikers (they have guns)

Strength: Crushers

T: Same

W: Crushers

I: Same

Attacks: Crushers

Ld: Same scenario as up top, but severely less so because bikers only have Ld 8 so... I'm going to give this to crushers.

Sv: This one may differ, crushers have a +5 invul, but bikers have a +3 armor so it depends what you are fighting, but because average things the bikers are charging really won't be ap 3 ill give it to them, but again it depends on the game.

Weapons: Crushers ap 3 vs. ap nothing or ap 3-2 on the biker champ, but then crushers would be closer in cost so this goes to crushers by far.

This isn't to say that the gorepack isn't the beast people say it is actually I would say it is a tad bit better than my idea here, but it depends on what you want. Do you want cheap, but fast units or do you want to take a gamble and taker a tad tiny bit slower units that are more powerful, but cost more it can differ game to game. All I'm actually trying to prove here is that Brazen Onslaught is a valid formation that shouldn't be looked at as inferior just as "different".

Haha. No worries. I think your comparisons aren't as accurate as you hope. Hounds vs termies isn't a fair match up. Namely because they do different things. You missed the fact that hounds have double the wounds. Fearless means they simply can't run away which your expensive termies can. And they have a 12" move and can scout. Termies need a very expensive delivery system or deeps trike turn two earliest and that means a turn three charge if you're lucky. Hounds are basically a turn two charge no matter what.

If someone hits your land raider and the termies are walking they can just be avoided all game. If the same weapon hits hounds. Then one dies and the rest keep coming. The termies with land raider are 436 points. That's 27 hounds. I know which I'd have.

And as for bikers vs crushers, again two different jobs. Crushers can't touch things like land raiders. Load bikes up with meltaguns and you can open cans. They also have a higher toughness, a significantly better armour save, and can jink.

You seem strung up on ap3. It's not that great, nor that important. With weight off attacks people will fail 3+ armour saves. Equally you are SEVERELY lacking in ap2 attacks. A terminator based army will laugh at this list. You can barely touch them.

You have solidified my point without even knowing it my good sir! You stated they have two different jobs, which I'm trying to enforce! They do and the formations there for have two different jobs. Brazen Onslaught- A killer formation, all units in it are going to kill things if you can safely get them into CC. Gorepack- A screening formation, it is able to block out enemy units to allow your real fighting units to get safely into combat also, it packs a small punch also it has bikes for opening cans to screen even MOAR units. The ap 3 thing? Well ye are right it is important! Contrary to your belief I actually don't want to mess around with +3 armor save you say they may fail it under weight of attacks. I say who needs weight of attacks when you have ap 3 . In the end they fulfill different roles and should be treated as such you stated that this formation will suffer vs. armor +2 and you are right! It will that is why I have berzerkers to patch up that hole with the attacks I'm losing from not taking gorepack. On the other hand when you see ap 3/4 models they usually won't have as few models like a terminator squad will with ap +2 so weight of attacks will be slightly less effective. Necron warriors don't care about your weight of attack when they can have a +4 armor save then a +4 RP. Overall as I have stated before, my proposition in stating this isn't that one formation is better than the other, it is both have equal opportunity to be used albeit in different situations.

Yep, and you are spot on. It seems that with regards to some points we are agreeing to. And I do agree with what you're saying about formations being there for different roles. But I'm afraid I must disagree about things like AP3/4. Especially on termites and bezerkers. I run bezerkers. I love them. But they are over costed. As are terminators over costed. And that's not just chaos ones. To add extra cost in there seems to make the unit less viable. But hey, the beauty with this game is we all have our own opinions, tactics, and favourite units.

You seem set on termites and crushers. If you're not planning on being competitive than why the heck not. I take non competitive units purely because I like them. But if you're trying to be competitive.... I think you'll struggle.

Don't get me wrong, I love your theme. But it's strength seems to be only in its theme. I'm pretty sure many an opponent will fancy their chances when they see crushers and termies being placed on the board.

This discussion has grown to the point while it is still interesting it becomes mirthless. I believe I am correct to assume neither of us have played KDK yet so I'm going to buy the Brazen Onslaught and see how it preforms and as I believe with your extensive knowledge of the codex you have it to, I am correct right? With this inference going further you seem to support that, that formation is very efficient and are willing to discuss it thoroughly with me therefore am I right to assume that you may be picking up the gorepack formation? Am I correct? I'm going to run this army and you will most likely make an army centered around gorepack and be sure to watch the meta-unfold. Only then may the debate of Brazen Onslaught being useful be concluded.

On the ap thing that is a discussion that has raged on throughout the ages... Chainaxe berzerkers or more berzerkers? Will the story ever end? I doubt it.

Haha, you are probably right. It will probably be endless.

You are right to assume I have the book. I have been a life long khonre player and it is finally nice to have a book to call our own that actually makes a lot of units playable. I have read the rules in the book through a few times. I like to know what I'm getting in to.

But, I will not be running the gorepack. I am not a bike fan. I'm not saying they're bad, I'm just not a fan personally and they don't suit my play style. I have played 3-4 games with this book so far and a lot of proxying. To start with I was using blood crushers to run with a juggerlord. It just don't work for me. Someone on here suggested hounds and I was play testing, so I thought' why not', they were fantastic. I'd never run them from the chaos daemon book before, and I was wondering why I hadn't. That's why I push them so hard, they're a new discovery for myself.

Personally I will be running a blood Host with a slaughtercult and 2 daemon engines, and then a KDK CAD to allow me a land raider without the terminator tax, and a Heldrake without the warp talon and raptor tax. But then my friends and I play at 2000 points.

Keep me posted though, it'd be nice to hear how they onslaught performs. Terminators gaining extra attacks goes a little way to making them more worth their points.